Sheppard East LRT - Cancel or Continue?

[DavidH]

You act like I haven't already commented on the results. I'm surprised at the result. I hadn't realised so many at Urban Toronto were so out of touch with reality.

It doesn't really matter how many transit followers here think the project will be stopped ... it will have absolutely no impact on the project itself. I can't even conceive the course of events that would stop a federal-provincial-city partnership at this stage.

Ah, but your question did not ask whether people think the project will be stopped. The question asked what we should do. If you had asked what UT commenters think WILL happen, the results might have been quite different.

 

[Justin10000]

Defeat? The poll isn't going to stop this project. Your group isn't going to stop this project. No politician would even think of canceling a project that is funded by the Provincial AND Federal governments.

I really wish you people would understand this, and actually focus your energy on getting the DRL built, and extending the Yonge to Steeles. These are project worth merit, yet you choose to wage a hopeless battle to extend a subway line most people agree should not have been built in the first place.

Niftz is right. Most of you are really out of touch with reality. You choose to ignore the history of subway building in Toronto since the 80's, and understand why we have to much more careful where we build subways, and how we formulate plans. I see this on other board boards. This subway vs. LRT debate. It's ridiculous and does nothing to help transit in the region. You ignore that Transit City was designed to stimulate medium density development as per the City Master Plan. The City does NOT want to build high density nodes, and you certainly do not need a subway for that anyways. There are a few example of successful TOD near LRT stations.

I also find it interesting that people can get away with calling people "LRTista" and others are sanctions for their opinions.

One question: When the LRT is built, will any of you use it?

 

[DavidH]

Niftz is right. Most of you are really out of touch with reality. You choose to ignore the history of subway building in Toronto since the 80's, and understand why we have to much more careful where we build subways, and how we formulate plans. I see this on other board boards. This subway vs. LRT debate. It's ridiculous and does nothing to help transit in the region. You ignore that Transit City was designed to stimulate medium density development as per the City Master Plan. The City does NOT want to build high density nodes, and you certainly do not need a subway for that anyways. There are a few example of successful TOD near LRT stations.

On the other hand, Transit City was originally advertised as a lower cost rapid transit implementation, and there is no doubt that LRT technology is certainly capable of being that. However, it's hard to see a 22 km/h implementation with stops every 400m as being designed for the "rapid transit" role.

Somehow, the focus has shifted from rapid transit to local service, and so we have a 25 year plan that includes only one subway improvement in the entire central core of the city (the DRL).

 

[kEiThZ]

Justin, Nick

You're right. Internet polls don't change anything. That's why we are working on our campaign. However, if I recall correctly the entire point of nfitz's poll was to prove that the majority of UTers prefer the Transit City plan and that those of us who were speaking out were some kind of vocal minority. Turns out we are speaking out for the silent majority. I can only hope we'll be equally successful in mobilizing public opinion.

 

[nfitz]

Ah, but your question did not ask whether people think the project will be stopped. The question asked what we should do. If you had asked what UT commenters think WILL happen, the results might have been quite different.

The poll asked what I intended it to ask. And certainly corrected my misperception that those what want to cancel the LRT were a minority. On that I have no problem conceding I'm wrong.

That doesn't mean that I would then support cancelling it. Or stop criticizing those who do support cancelling it. It does mean though that I'll stop simply trying to blow them off.

I'm just completely perplexed that so many, want to spend so much effort to stop a project that politically would be extremely difficult to stop (mostly because of the 3-levels of government involved).

I really think one has to pick one's battles ... and there are so many other battles here that are much more winnable than this one. I think most of us agree that the Spadina extension north of Steeles shouldn't be happening, but for the same political reasons, I think stopping it would be near impossible, and the effort could be expended elsewhere.

We've seem this before - community groups fighting against a project looking for a different solution, and then loosing the first project, but not getting the other solution either. Take the Gardiner East expressway ... it was cancelled in the early 1970s and instead it was supposed to be replaced with a frequent electrified rail service along Lakeshore East with additional stations ... which 35 years later is yet to appear; the GO ALRT project having been cancelled in the early 1980s. Now in that case stopping the expressway was still probably best for the community in Toronto itself; though those in Scarborough might have preferred the expressway to the rail service that might finally appear 50 years later.

I think people are forgetting how difficult it is to get new projects started, and forgetting the lessons from the past!

At the same time it does make me take the opponents a bit more seriously ... and perhaps looking for a middle ground might make sense? Instead of pushing the subway off Sheppard to the south, to SC, then perhaps it should instead be pushed north to Finch, where all the people are!

 

[rbt]

On the other hand, Transit City was originally advertised as a lower cost rapid transit implementation... However, it's hard to see a 22 km/h implementation with stops every 400m as being designed for the "rapid transit" role.

The close stop spacing is what the public requested when they attended the various meetings held so you could voice you opinion on such things.

In fact, one of the remaining major criticisms of Eglinton is the long distance between stops in the tunnelled portion. If we go with a single large tunnel bore you may find a few additional stops added to the tunnel portion due to popular demand.

For the record, I also voiced that opinion. I recommended they plan flat locations so additional stations could be built at a later date in the central portion of Eglinton.

 

[Justin10000]

On the other hand, Transit City was originally advertised as a lower cost rapid transit implementation, and there is no doubt that LRT technology is certainly capable of being that. However, it's hard to see a 22 km/h implementation with stops every 400m as being designed for the "rapid transit" role.

The EA stated that there was no time savings with longer station spacing due to longer dwell times. I don't think ridership is going to suffer even this station spacing. The line may not attract longer distance riders, but those rider should be utlizing GO anyways.

Somehow, the focus has shifted from rapid transit to local service, and so we have a 25 year plan that includes only one subway improvement in the entire central core of the city (the DRL).

Local service attracts more riders. Plus, doesn't the city want to promote medium density development along the TC corridors. That's not really possible with a subway.

 

[DavidH]

The poll asked what I intended it to ask. And certainly corrected my misperception that those what want to cancel the LRT were a minority. On that I have no problem conceding I'm wrong.

Of course, but your earlier statement was that voters on the poll think that cancelling the LRT is possible, and because of the question you asked, the poll results provide NO information as to whether they think canceling is possible or likely. It only tells us that they want to cancel it.

 

[nfitz]

Of course, but your earlier statement was that voters on the poll think that cancelling the LRT is possible, and because of the question you asked, the poll results provide NO information as to whether they think canceling is possible or likely. It only tells us that they want to cancel it.

Perhaps I should have phrased it as "Let's try and get it cancelled" ... but I think it's suitably close enough that the results wouldn't chang much ... not one person here has spoken up and said "I voted it should have be cancelled, but I don't think it's worth the effort to try and do it at this stage".

 

[DavidH]

The EA stated that there was no time savings with longer station spacing due to longer dwell times. I don't think ridership is going to suffer even this station spacing. The line may not attract longer distance riders, but those rider should be utlizing GO anyways.

That's fine as far as it goes - but then we need to build GO corridors that handle those routes. Instead, we are continuing the pattern of GO trains serving downtown exclusively with a single eastern crosstown corridor and even that will be rush hour only and arguably too far south. Granted that those lines have to deal with the reality of where our legacy rail corridors are.

I have NO problem with TC being turned into a more local service with longer distance riders being directed elsewhere. In the current Metrolinx plan, though, I have a very hard time identifying what that "elsewhere" will be.

 

[Justin10000]

Justin, Nick

You're right. Internet polls don't change anything. That's why we are working on our campaign. However, if I recall correctly the entire point of nfitz's poll was to prove that the majority of UTers prefer the Transit City plan and that those of us who were speaking out were some kind of vocal minority. Turns out we are speaking out for the silent majority. I can only hope we'll be equally successful in mobilizing public opinion.

Then you will understand that supporters of this plan(Actually transit, general), will work against you, and your group. I am not being rude, I being truthful. Your attempts are misguided, and I honestly believe you are going to do harm for transit in this region by insisting fully funded projects be cancelled so a subway with poor ridership can be extended.

I doubt you will mobilize public opinion. The TTC did a pretty decent job in selling Transit City, and showing the plans. I doubt people are going to go along with waiting 10 more years just so a subway can be built.

I am all for advocacy. But advocating canceling transit lines? That's taking it too far.

 

[kEiThZ]

Instead of pushing the subway off Sheppard to the south, to SC, then perhaps it should instead be pushed north to Finch, where all the people are!

Perhaps the LRT should be pushed north to Finch. I'd be willing to settle for a full Finch Crosstown from Malvern to the Airport. That would be more useful than the hybrid Sheppard/Finch monster they have now. Just build a few diamond lanes on Sheppard to counter the bus congestion and plan for a subway extension down the road.

The only reason Sheppard is getting a LRT is so that the city can write off Sheppard as done. It wants the check in the box. In the process they will decimate all hope of a subway extension for decades and give us another version of Kennedy station in the north. That's unacceptable.

 

[Justin10000]

I have NO problem with TC being turned into a more local service with longer distance riders being directed elsewhere. In the current Metrolinx plan, though, I have a very hard time identifying what that "elsewhere" will be.

I agree. That is something that must be addressed. This is an issue I would definitely petition for.

 

[kEiThZ]

Then you will understand that supporters of this plan(Actually transit, general), will work against you, and your group. I am not being rude, I being truthful.

Hey this isn't my day job. It's community activism. We fully expect opposition. If we succeed great. If we didn't at least we didn't sit there and take it.

You are, however, severely underestimating the amount of support there is for subway extensions in Scarborough. As little as two years ago, Miller was facing revolts on the Scarborough Community Council over Transit City. The only reason they caved was because they were told that there was no money for subways. Now that TC is set to hit 12-15 billion, it's obvious that was a lie.

Your attempts are misguided, and I honestly believe you are going to do harm for transit in this region by insisting fully funded projects be cancelled so a subway with poor ridership can be extended.

You are entitled to your opinion and we to ours. That's the beauty of democracy. You believe the Sheppard subway has poor ridership. I believe that the TTC employs artificial measures to make it look bad. By any reasonable international standard the line would be deemed a success and extended.

I doubt you will mobilize public opinion. The TTC did a pretty decent job in selling Transit City, and showing the plans.

Ask the average person (not the transit enthusiast) how much they know about Transit City. You'll be surprised.

I doubt people are going to go along with waiting 10 more years just so a subway can be built.

They've waited decades in Scarborough for a subway to STC. I doubt you'll hear complaints if they have to wait another10 years, as long as there's work being done on it.

 

[kEiThZ]

That's fine as far as it goes - but then we need to build GO corridors that handle those routes. Instead, we are continuing the pattern of GO trains serving downtown exclusively with a single eastern crosstown corridor and even that will be rush hour only and arguably too far south. Granted that those lines have to deal with the reality of where our legacy rail corridors are.

I have NO problem with TC being turned into a more local service with longer distance riders being directed elsewhere. In the current Metrolinx plan, though, I have a very hard time identifying what that "elsewhere" will be.

+1

There's no talk at all about a northern crosstown route. That's being strapped on to the Sheppard/Finch LRT. If that's going to be the case, then subway is the proper solution.