DavidH
Senior Member
Miller didn't cancel anything; there has never been provincial funding allocated for a Sheppard extension.
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Sheppard East LRT - Cancel or Continue?
- Thread starter nfitz
- Start date
GraphicMatt
Looking forward to a FRESH START for Toronto
Miller canceled a funded and ready-to-be-built plan to extend the Sheppard Subway?
kEiThZ
Superstar
Harris cancelled funding. Miller took the subway completely off the books with Transit City. Both had their hand in the mess that's developed along that corridor.
GraphicMatt
Looking forward to a FRESH START for Toronto
Then point that out, I guess, but be sure to source things.
For this to qualify as a lie, you'd have to somehow prove that Miller knew both that a) alterations to the Transit City plan would increase the costs to what they are now, and b) that that level of funding was available from the provincial and federal governments.
I think one of the biggest mistakes you can make with your advocacy efforts is to assume procuring transit funding is easy. Transit City was designed from the start to fit into political reality - using cheaper technology to reach more people (aka voters) in a shorter period of time.
That Miller, Giambrone and the rest of City Council were able to work together and get both the provincial and federal governments to fund ANY transit in the Sheppard corridor in the near-term, so soon after the 'stubway' which was not looked upon politically as a Very Good Thing, is an achievement. A wrongheaded achievement, in your opinion, but the facts remain.
DavidH
Senior Member
I'll agree that Miller removed the Sheppard extension from the City's request list, but it was never anything more than a unanswered request. Miller then made the decision to accept that funding for subway construction was drying up and to promote an LRT plan as a lower cost alternative.
Of course, funds have become more available recently. I have to wonder if Transit City might have been conceived differently had that been anticipated.
unimaginative2
Senior Member
I'm not going to get into accusations of lies, but it's pretty clear that Miller committed to a plan that--even at its original planned cost of $6 billion--would have been more than sufficient to finish the Sheppard and Eglinton West subways that were then on the books. He made a conscious choice to reorient transit planning in the city away from the proposed network that is the basis of the current official plan in favour of a plan to bring a streetcar to every councillor's ward. You can claim that it "serves a wider area," to which the obvious rejoinder is that a subway line does not just serve its immediate pedestrian catchment area, unlike most street median LRTs.
Drying up? Let's be clear here: this provincial government is spending more on transit capital construction than any other government in Ontario's history. They would have absolutely no problem spending that money on subways, as can be seen in York Region. The choice to eliminate all plans for new subways in the city was entirely the City of Toronto's.
It would not have been conceived differently because it was predicated on large sums of money being available. It's not like Transit City was some kind of low cost option. Even at its original projection, it cost much more than the Eglinton West subway and Sheppard subway that were then on the books.
Drying up? Let's be clear here: this provincial government is spending more on transit capital construction than any other government in Ontario's history. They would have absolutely no problem spending that money on subways, as can be seen in York Region. The choice to eliminate all plans for new subways in the city was entirely the City of Toronto's.
It would not have been conceived differently because it was predicated on large sums of money being available. It's not like Transit City was some kind of low cost option. Even at its original projection, it cost much more than the Eglinton West subway and Sheppard subway that were then on the books.
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kEiThZ
Superstar
The mistake here is that after he knew that there was more money available, they didn't go back to the drawing board and come up with a better plan. They said LRT is good enough and went off and signed agreements.
Metrolinx is another huge disappointment for not pushing a true RTP which most assuredly would have required alterations to Transit City. Instead we are left with no true northern crosstown route until you get as far north as the 407. That lead to this desparate attempt to strap on a crosstown function onto a glorified local streetcar/tram line.
Metrolinx is another huge disappointment for not pushing a true RTP which most assuredly would have required alterations to Transit City. Instead we are left with no true northern crosstown route until you get as far north as the 407. That lead to this desparate attempt to strap on a crosstown function onto a glorified local streetcar/tram line.
kettal
Banned
The ever popular Goose that Laid the Golden Eggs theory.
Would provincial politicians really spend so many billions for subways which only go into a few 416 ridings, when they can hit twice as many for a lower price?
kettal
Banned
Do you honestly remember the time line? The money came after the proposals. When Transit City plan was announced, it was something Toronto might scrap together enough spare change to build, with some creative fund raisers or accounting. It was a pie-in-the-sky dream.
Then when McGuinty announces funding, you expect the city to do a bait and switch? "Just kidding Mr. Premier, we actually want subways
"kEiThZ
Superstar
Do you honestly remember the time line? The money came after the proposals. When Transit City plan was announced, it was something Toronto might scrap together enough spare change to build, with some creative fund raisers or accounting. It was a pie-in-the-sky dream.
Then when McGuinty announces funding, you expect the city to do a bait and switch? "Just kidding Mr. Premier, we actually want subways
No I expect the Mayor to expend some of his political capital and explain to Metrolinx that Transit City was developed for a severely fiscally constrained environment to provide barebones local service enhancements with regional service as a secondary consideration, and that in an era where Metrolinx wishes to focus on greater regional transit integration and co-operation that Toronto can do better. What's so hard about that? It's leadership, not bait-and-switch. Metrolinx still has not committed to TC in its entirety. It's going one line at a time. Had they an adult conversation with Metrolinx, it's entirely possible that we would not be having this discussion. Somehow I doubt that happened.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Guess that rules out the DRL as well then.
kettal
Banned
The way it is playing out, DRL might be a prerequisite for any expansions on Yonge subway, so who knows.
GraphicMatt
Looking forward to a FRESH START for Toronto
Yeah, the DRL is being made entirely political. The province wants the 905 extensions of YUS but City Council is making their support conditional on the DRL being studied (and then hopefully built). It's a shrewd move.
Transit projects don't just happen because they make sense and will help people move around. They happen because they can help win elections.
Transit projects don't just happen because they make sense and will help people move around. They happen because they can help win elections.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Metrolinx was supposed to solve that problem. All we're doing here is campaigning for them to follow their principles.
nfitz
Superstar
That would have been a good idea; did you raise it during the consultation on the LRT? Though this is the one good aspect of the Finch to Don Mills connection; that once you've got the LRT to Don Mills, then clearly the extra effort to push it east from there will make sense.