Sheppard East LRT - Cancel or Continue?

[Voltz]

The grade separation is required for improved GO service. It has to be done regardless of whether the LRT is built or not. In fact, as Scarberian pointed out the LRT makes the grade separation even more problematic than if there was a subway there.

How would the LRT make the grade separation more problematic? It is not there yet and they would make it a six lane underpass regardless.

 

[nfitz]

Personally I pushing for a truncated LRT. Subway till Agincourt for now. Agincourt to STC can come later.

If you build the LRT for the 2/3 of the distance from Agincourt to Meadowvale now, you've spent about $600-million of your $1.1-billion. That leaves about $500-million ... which might get you the 2.0 km subway to Victoria Park (I'd think you need another $100-150-million more, but let's assume it get's you to Victoria Park.

That leaves about 3.4 km from Victoria Park to Agincourt. Where do you get the remaining $1-billion (or more) to build that? That would essentially almost double the cost of the project over what has been funded.

The grade separation is required for improved GO service. It has to be done regardless of whether the LRT is built or not. In fact, as Scarberian pointed out the LRT makes the grade separation even more problematic than if there was a subway there.

It's absolutely necessary for improved GO service. However GO is not constructing it; it's being run through the TTC and the Transit City project. I'm sure it's somewhat more complex ... but the worst-case scenario is that you end up with some extra money spent safetying LRT in the construction ... in the same manner the City appears to have done the same in the new Dufferin street grade-separation.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

i'm waiting for the first person to say "nimby" for others demanding a mode of transportation be built VS. another.

 

[Rainforest]

If you build the LRT for the 2/3 of the distance from Agincourt to Meadowvale now, you've spent about $600-million of your $1.1-billion. That leaves about $500-million ... which might get you the 2.0 km subway to Victoria Park (I'd think you need another $100-150-million more, but let's assume it get's you to Victoria Park.

That leaves about 3.4 km from Victoria Park to Agincourt. Where do you get the remaining $1-billion (or more) to build that? That would essentially almost double the cost of the project over what has been funded.

That's correct; however, about $350 million can be redirected from the Finch - Don Mills bypass (assuming that the Finch West portion does not run over budget). If those $350 M are reallocated, the idea to get the remaining $650 M (or even $800 M) from the province is not hopeless.

 

[kEiThZ]

How would the LRT make the grade separation more problematic? It is not there yet and they would make it a six lane underpass regardless.

I believe the LRT is impacting their decision to move the station south of Sheppard to where the GO lines meet.

 

[kEiThZ]

i'm waiting for the first person to say "nimby" for others demanding a mode of transportation be built VS. another.

How is somebody that wants more invasive construction a nimby? I like nfitz's characterization of us as "IMBY".

 

[kEiThZ]

If you build the LRT for the 2/3 of the distance from Agincourt to Meadowvale now, you've spent about $600-million of your $1.1-billion. That leaves about $500-million ... which might get you the 2.0 km subway to Victoria Park (I'd think you need another $100-150-million more, but let's assume it get's you to Victoria Park.

That leaves about 3.4 km from Victoria Park to Agincourt. Where do you get the remaining $1-billion (or more) to build that? That would essentially almost double the cost of the project over what has been funded.

How about using BRT on the Agincourt-Meadowvale process or canning the Morningside LRT which really won't do much.

It's absolutely necessary for improved GO service. However GO is not constructing it; it's being run through the TTC and the Transit City project. I'm sure it's somewhat more complex ... but the worst-case scenario is that you end up with some extra money spent safetying LRT in the construction ... in the same manner the City appears to have done the same in the new Dufferin street grade-separation.

It's a moot point since Metrolinx owns all the new lines and it's being paid for by Metrolinx.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Are the ones who want a subway, the same ones upset about higher taxes? A subway is more expensive, meaning higher taxes. Make up your mind.

 

[kEiThZ]

Are the ones who want a subway, the same ones upset about higher taxes? A subway is more expensive, meaning higher taxes. Make up your mind.

Who said we are upset about higher taxes? I, for one, would gladly pay higher taxes if it bought me better transit.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

How is somebody that wants more invasive construction a nimby? I like nfitz's characterization of us as "IMBY".

just look at the union pearson rail link thread. and the point you just made is my point exactly.

 

[Dan416]

just look at the union pearson rail link thread. and the point you just made is my point exactly.

That is a completely different situation. We don't have a union-pearson rail link that only reaches Bloor or Eglinton. There is no electrification being done at present, and isn't being planned any time soon (they're still studying it).

In this case, the Sheppard subway already reaches Don Mills, and an EA has been done already (up to Vic Park? I'm not sure). And the costs are larger, but relatively reasonable.

And nfitz, thanks for proving the point that subway is still the preferred option by far, even if it involves cancelling the "under construction" Sheppard East LRT. The subway option has grown to 71%.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

That is a completely different situation. We don't have a union-pearson rail link that only reaches Bloor or Eglinton. There is no electrification being done at present, and isn't being planned any time soon (they're still studying it).

In this case, the Sheppard subway already reaches Don Mills, and an EA has been done already (up to Vic Park? I'm not sure). And the costs are larger, but relatively reasonable.

i not sure if you can still use the old EAs after all that time that has passed.

the situation is very similar. the LRT is ready to go but wanting a subway will delay the project for a few years, might take longer to build, cost more money therefore deprive other areas of possible transit improvements & the delay will cause environmental damage and traffic congestion because since the LRT could be built faster than the subway, it can take more cars off the road in a quicker period of time, etc. etc. and then they'll call you a nimby for wanting something that costs more, carries more people, travels at a faster speed, requires more construction efforts (invasive) BUT might take a few years longer to finish.

 

[kEiThZ]

just look at the union pearson rail link thread. and the point you just made is my point exactly.

The Westonites were demanding electrification in the hopes of getting the whole thing canned. The also demanded a tunnel/deck as well. They wanted nothing to do with the trains that were scheduled to go through their neighbourhood. That's not IMBYism, that's NIMBYism (albeit a well disguised form). Nobody here is escalating demands (they've been consistent from the beginning) and nobody here is hoping that the corridor gets nothing. If the subway won't get extended I'll settle for LRT. But we owe it to our community to advocate for what we think is best.

 

[kEiThZ]

i not sure if you can still use the old EAs after all that time that has passed.

the situation is very similar. the LRT is ready to go but wanting a subway will delay the project for a few years, might take longer to build, cost more money therefore deprive other areas of possible transit improvements & the delay will cause environmental damage and traffic congestion because since the LRT could be built faster than the subway, it can take more cars off the road in a quicker period of time, etc. etc. and then they'll call you a nimby for wanting something that costs more, carries more people, travels at a faster speed, requires more construction efforts (invasive) BUT might take a few years longer to finish.

Updating an EA won't take long. And a full blown TRAP will take a year max. In the meantime they can start as planned on Sheppard East portion through Malvern. They just have to work on the subway portion till Agincourt concurrently. If the whole thing is delayed a few years nobody will mind if the final product is a masterpiece.

Delaying something on Sheppard is a minor inconvenience compared to their plan to shut down the SRT which is the trunk line for a lot of Scarberians. And that's being addressed too in this campaign (a subway extension allows the SRT to stay in service till construction ends).

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

The Westonites were demanding electrification in the hopes of getting the whole thing canned. The also demanded a tunnel/deck as well. They wanted nothing to do with the trains that were scheduled to go through their neighbourhood. That's not IMBYism, that's NIMBYism (albeit a well disguised form). Nobody here is escalating demands (they've been consistent from the beginning) and nobody here is hoping that the corridor gets nothing. If the subway won't get extended I'll settle for LRT. But we owe it to our community to advocate for what we think is best.

that is a pretty big generalization to make. most people i've talked to from that area want more transit, if fact, all people i've talked to and this includes people from the WCC. the only differing opinion i have encountered is whether to close the streets. some people actually want that to happen.

by the same token you can argue that those wanting a subway instead of LRT on sheppard east are demanding a subway in attempts to get the expansion project canned as well. not that i believe that.