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Sheppard East LRT - Cancel or Continue?

Should construction of the Sheppard East LRT be cancelled?


  • Total voters
    85
  • Poll closed .
Since money is no object, why don't we just extend the Yonge Subway up to Barrie or Orillia.

If you have been given only $Y, you can't then spend 7 times that just because you want something better. Live within you means. That is why we have a recession now, spending above what we make. I have a house without a mortgage, because we didn't spend, spend, spend.
 
Since money is no object, why don't we just extend the Yonge Subway up to Barrie or Orillia.

If you have been given only $Y, you can't then spend 7 times that just because you want something better. Live within you means. That is why we have a recession now, spending above what we make. I have a house without a mortgage, because we didn't spend, spend, spend.

By that rationale we would never build any transit since virtually all transit is a money losing proposition.
 
You are, however, severely underestimating the amount of support there is for subway extensions in Scarborough. As little as two years ago, Miller was facing revolts on the Scarborough Community Council over Transit City. The only reason they caved was because they were told that there was no money for subways. Now that TC is set to hit 12-15 billion, it's obvious that was a lie.

Control the crazy. Why is it obvious that it was a lie? Why do you need to call the mayor a liar to move your agenda forward?
 
Control the crazy. Why is it obvious that it was a lie? Why do you need to call the mayor a liar to move your agenda forward?

What would you call inflation from 6 billion to 12-15 billion? Either they severely miscalculated (which would be incompetence) or severely mislead the public (lied). Now I am not directing this campaign at Miller or Giambrone or someone else. We just want to point out that the resources are there to build subways if they are deployed appropriately.
 
Why is it obvious that it was a lie?

Because it was a lie. "Oh my, we cannot possibly pay for any subway projects!" was the whine, and then alternatives to subway projects were proposed that cost even more.

You ignore that Transit City was designed to stimulate medium density development as per the City Master Plan. The City does NOT want to build high density nodes, and you certainly do not need a subway for that anyways. There are a few example of successful TOD near LRT stations.

Uh, you might want to take a look at the official plan. You're ignoring that huge stretches of Transfer City are not Avenues. The entire plan will basically have to be rewritten to accommodate Transfer City, which does little to support areas designated for growth.

LRT will not stimulate development and it certainly won't magically stimulate medium density development. I'm sorry to break it to you, but that's just not how things work in the real world.

I am all for advocacy. But advocating canceling transit lines? That's taking it too far.

The Sheppard subway extension was cancelled due to LRT advocacy. The goals of the LRT can be accomplished with buses, so even if the subway isn't extended any time soon, transit *can* be improved without wasting a billion dollars.
 
Hey this isn't my day job. It's community activism. We fully expect opposition. If we succeed great. If we didn't at least we didn't sit there and take it.

That's fine.

You are, however, severely underestimating the amount of support there is for subway extensions in Scarborough. As little as two years ago, Miller was facing revolts on the Scarborough Community Council over Transit City. The only reason they caved was because they were told that there was no money for subways. Now that TC is set to hit 12-15 billion, it's obvious that was a lie.

Is this the same council that wanted to extend the LRT to the zoo? The same council that is now calling for the LRT to interline with the SRT so that trains can run to STC? W.K. Lis said it best: You have to make do with what is available. The project changed quite a bit from the original plan. Cost increases are to be expected. I can only imagine what the cost increase would be for a subway.
You are not going to get much support from Scarborough Council for a subway right now. I have a good feeling council members will demand more LRT when they realize how effective it can be.


You are entitled to your opinion and we to ours. That's the beauty of democracy. You believe the Sheppard subway has poor ridership. I believe that the TTC employs artificial measures to make it look bad. By any reasonable international standard the line would be deemed a success and extended.

By any international standard, the line would have been built as LRT. No city would think of wasting 1 Billion dollars to move 50,000 riders 5km. If I remember correctly, the EA for the Sheppard subway did not even include LRT as an alternative.


They've waited decades in Scarborough for a subway to STC. I doubt you'll hear complaints if they have to wait another10 years, as long as there's work being done on it.

You'll definitely hear complaints when you tell them they should cancel fully funded lines to start over again. Any sane person will realize just how silly it is to do so. Not to mention cancelling lines that are actually reaching more people than one short line to STC.
 
The Sheppard subway extension was cancelled due to LRT advocacy. The goals of the LRT can be accomplished with buses, so even if the subway isn't extended any time soon, transit *can* be improved without wasting a billion dollars.
I'd argue that Sheppard's completion was cancelled by the Harris government for cost reasons, and by the time it was even possible to consider a restart, the City had switched to an LRT alternative.
 
I'd argue that Sheppard's completion was cancelled by the Harris government for cost reasons, and by the time it was even possible to consider a restart, the City had switched to an LRT alternative.

Nope...you can't blame Mike Harris for Transit City.
 
Is this the same council that wanted to extend the LRT to the zoo? The same council that is now calling for the LRT to interline with the SRT so that trains can run to STC? W.K. Lis said it best: You have to make do with what is available. The project changed quite a bit from the original plan. Cost increases are to be expected. I can only imagine what the cost increase would be for a subway.

You are not going to get much support from Scarborough Council for a subway right now. I have a good feeling council members will demand more LRT when they realize how effective it can be.

The same council that caved and is now trying to make the best of a bad situation. The only reason they want interlined connections and LRT on the SRT corridor is because they don't want the mistake of the last 3 decades (orphan technology) perpetrated on Scarborough again. And it's not all that bad an idea. I support it. At least a few more passengers will get a one-seat ride to Kennedy out of it. The fewer transfer the better.

And our plan does not rule out that possibility at all. I have said all along the SRT should be replaced with a subway extension till STC and an at-grade Transit City style LRT on Progress till Malvern Town Centre. What is a waste is building fully grade separated ART Mk II lines east of McCowan and north of Sheppard just because the demand for something greater than conventional LRT exists west of McCowan.

The Progress LRT could offer interlined service with the Sheppard East LRT. We are only calling for a subway till Agincourt, which then turns south to STC. LRT can still be built on the rest of Sheppard East.



By any international standard, the line would have been built as LRT. No city would think of wasting 1 Billion dollars to move 50,000 riders 5km. If I remember correctly, the EA for the Sheppard subway did not even include LRT as an alternative.

It has been pointed out here repeatedly that the Sheppard subway with a handful of stops carries more passengers than entire subway lines that cross through downtown cores in several other cities (see Chicago for comparison). Anyway, regardless of what should or should not have been built, we have what we have. It is patently unfair to have Scarborough residents pay for the sins of TTC planners by setting up another Kennedy station at Don Mills.

You'll definitely hear complaints when you tell them they should cancel fully funded lines to start over again. Any sane person will realize just how silly it is to do so. Not to mention cancelling lines that are actually reaching more people than one short line to STC.

It is Metrolinx that controls the tap. The feds and the TTC are silent partners here. I am fairly sure that if they can be convinced by the locals that a subway offers much more potential they will alter their plans accordingly.

As for some anticipated public anger, I suggest you head out to Scarborough and ask that question yourself to riders on the Mezzanine of Kennedy station. Ask them if they want LRT now or a subway to STC in a decade. I will bet money on that response. Ditto for the same question to riders at Don Mills.
 
By any international standard, the line would have been built as LRT. No city would think of wasting 1 Billion dollars to move 50,000 riders 5km. If I remember correctly, the EA for the Sheppard subway did not even include LRT as an alternative.

You need to get out more. First of all, there are dozens of subway extension of that length and that ridership (or lower) being built around the world. I lived in Munich for a bit, so the Messestadt and OEZ extensions come instantly to mind. Berlin is building the U5/U55 extension. As I've mentioned, the L train in New York had a lower ridership than Sheppard when Sheppard opened. It's also three times the length.

Secondly, you remember incorrectly. Network 2011 studied subway, BRT, and LRT in detail. They recommended BRT with provisions for upgrade to LRT on Eglinton, and subway on Sheppard.

You'll definitely hear complaints when you tell them they should cancel fully funded lines to start over again. Any sane person will realize just how silly it is to do so. Not to mention cancelling lines that are actually reaching more people than one short line to STC.

This is one of the most blatant logical fallacies of the LRT planning (along with, of course, the inelastic demand numbers). What does "reaching" mean? It's all well and good if the purpose of these lines is to be able to look out your window and see an LRT line (or to put a streetcar in every ward, as Councillor de Baeremaeker said), but if you're actually trying to move people places, the most important thing is for the line to actually serve real travel patterns. How many people in Morningside Heights actually want to go down to Kingston Road? How many people by Rouge Park actually want to go to Fairview Mall? How many people at Jane and Finch actually want to go to Jane and Eglinton? Most of these lines deliberately bypass established hubs like Scarborough Centre because it's a mall (ew! ick!) despite the fact that it's by far the biggest destination in Scarborough. Trips can also include more than one mode. For example, a person riding from Malvern to Downtown will now have two Transit City routes in their neighbourhood. They're not likely to ride either of them. As Adam Giambrone said, the Sheppard LRT will be too slow for people going all the way downtown. The same is certainly true for the Morningside line. The best way to give people all over north, northeast, and east Scarborough a faster, more reliable, and more comfortable ride is to replace the RT with a subway. Yes, the subway might not be in front of their door, but it will benefit far more people.

As for some anticipated public anger, I suggest you head out to Scarborough and ask that question yourself to riders on the Mezzanine of Kennedy station. Ask them if they want LRT now or a subway to STC in a decade. I will bet money on that response. Ditto for the same question to riders at Don Mills.

The key is that people actually understand what LRT is. To listen to the fanboys and city councillors, it's this magical technology that can do anything for anyone everywhere. If people actually understood that it's basically Spadina or St. Clair with longer vehicles, lower frequencies than their existing bus, and at the absolute best about 10% travel time savings, I can guarantee what their answer would be. I can just hear the blustering "But! But! It will be different!" now, but that's a pretty accurate description of the plans we've seen. I've heard nothing--nothing--from anyone at the TTC that suggests it will be any different from St. Clair other than POP and occasionally less frequent stops.

You'll definitely hear complaints when you tell them they should cancel fully funded lines to start over again. Any sane person will realize just how silly it is to do so. Not to mention cancelling lines that are actually reaching more people than one short line to STC.

Oh come on. You'd push for cancelling fully-funded subway lines in a heartbeat if you thought it would lead to a streetcar some time down the road.
 
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Nope...you can't blame Mike Harris for Transit City.

He's not blaming Mike Harris for Transit City, but he is blaming Harris for stopping the Sheppard line more than halfway than where it was supposed to go. The cancellation of the line from Don Mills just set up for Transit City.
 
He's not blaming Mike Harris for Transit City, but he is blaming Harris for stopping the Sheppard line more than halfway than where it was supposed to go. The cancellation of the line from Don Mills just set up for Transit City.

Nope again. Subway construction is always phased. Mike Harris did not prevent the line from being extended past Don Mills or west to Downsview - LRT advocacy did, along with a healthy dose of misguided idealism and a sprig of spiting Mel Lastman.
 
He's not blaming Mike Harris for Transit City, but he is blaming Harris for stopping the Sheppard line more than halfway than where it was supposed to go. The cancellation of the line from Don Mills just set up for Transit City.
Exactly. If the Mike Harris era hadn't happened, Sheppard might already be running to STC.
 
I wanted to comment on the assertions that Transit City detractors have only popped up in recent times. Something which I believe is not true, in fact the Transfer City moniker has been around just about as long as Transit City has been.

I think that transit enthousiasts and riders have long been starved from any real transit improvement since Sheppard (which was castrated) that any announcement was bound to be gobbled up. It was, when the city came out and said "look 100+km of transit improvements!!!" people went OMG serious awsome! Without really paying much attention to the meat of the plan. However even at that point there were a small percentage of people who questioned the plan, hence Transfer City.

Slowly as the plans came to light more people began to have more questions about the plan. SELRT causing transfers right across the route, the lack of a connector between the East and West lines (which was "answered" with the Finch East to Don Mills extension), the ballooning costs that brought the entire plan into subway cost territory (Eglinton I'm looking at you), the lack of true "Rapid transit" due to "local" stop spacing. The voices became louder because the feeling was that this was being rammed though so to speak.

Rather than answer the questions, Toronto and the TTC instead chose to (essentially) say "What don't you want better transit?" as if LRT were the only option. That's like telling someone who's been eating gruel all their life, you give them a pork chop, they point to the nice steak and say why can't I have that, and you respond by saying "what you'd rather have the gruel?".
 

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