Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

Coruscanti Cognoscente said:
Are there any destinations on Yonge Street???

Hurontario is a busier corridor than Yonge. And Dundas is busy in its own right.

BD is the only subway that will ever be close to Mississauga, so yes it should be extended into Mississauga.
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NYCC, and Yonge & Eglinton are pretty major employment hubs. There's a bit of a hub at Islington & Bloor, but that's really about it. But the point is there are destinations along Yonge, even north of downtown, that trump anything that there is along Bloor west. People ride the Bloor-Danforth line to get to either Yorkville or YUS.

And the Eglinton LRT will end up right on the border of Mississauga when it reaches Renforth Gateway. And if it's grade-separated through the Richview corridor, it'll pretty much be the same as a subway.

Rainforest said:
Either of those connections would be rather slow, if the goal is to travel between Sq 1 and downtown Toronto. Eglinton option will be a bit longer, and likely slower if Eglinton runs partly in street median.

Really, the best connection to Mississauga is GO REX on the Milton line, redirected in a tunnel to serve Sq 1 directly. It will be by far the fastest option.

Only if CP proves to be totally uncooperative, should an alternative connection, either Bloor or Eglinton, be considered.
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No doubt that either way it'll be a slow ride, I'm just looking at cost-effectiveness here. Do you rejig the Mississauga Transitway to be able to handle LRT vehicles & buses at the same stations (which would probably only get up into the low hundreds of millions), or do you want to build a multi-billion dollar subway extension to accomplish basically the same goal?

But yes, a GO REX diversion to Sq 1 would be by far the most efficient way of doing it from a time perspective.
 
gweed123 said:
NYCC, and Yonge & Eglinton are pretty major employment hubs. There's a bit of a hub at Islington & Bloor, but that's really about it. But the point is there are destinations along Yonge, even north of downtown, that trump anything that there is along Bloor west. People ride the Bloor-Danforth line to get to either Yorkville or YUS.
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We are discussing extensions of Yonge vs Bloor. What's on the existing subway is a moot point. If you wanna discuss destinations along the extension that's fine. The Bloor line would have Square One. What would Yonge have? Like seriously, what is up there?

And the Eglinton LRT will end up right on the border of Mississauga when it reaches Renforth Gateway. And if it's grade-separated through the Richview corridor, it'll pretty much be the same as a subway.

There is absolutely no indication that Phase II of Eglinton would be grade-separated along the western segment. None. We like to talk about it on this board, but the presentation boards do NOT show that.

No doubt that either way it'll be a slow ride, I'm just looking at cost-effectiveness here. Do you rejig the Mississauga Transitway to be able to handle LRT vehicles & buses at the same stations (which would probably only get up into the low hundreds of millions), or do you want to build a multi-billion dollar subway extension to accomplish basically the same goal?

But yes, a GO REX diversion to Sq 1 would be by far the most efficient way of doing it from a time perspective.
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Frequent GO service on the Milton line would be great, so would diverting the line to Square One.

GO train service to MCC is necessary. So is a Bloor line extension to MCC. So is a Eglinton LRT extension to connect with the Mississauga BRT. Doesn't mean we should cancel any of them.
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Coruscanti Cognoscente said:
We are discussing extensions of Yonge vs Bloor. What's on the existing subway is a moot point. If you wanna discuss destinations along the extension that's fine. The Bloor line would have Square One. What would Yonge have? Like seriously, what is up there?

And the Eglinton LRT will end up right on the border of Mississauga when it reaches Renforth Gateway. And if it's grade-separated through the Richview corridor, it'll pretty much be the same as a subway.

There is absolutely no indication that Phase II of Eglinton would be grade-separated along the western segment. None. We like to talk about it on this board, but the presentation boards do NOT show that.



Frequent GO service on the Milton line would be great, so would diverting the line to Square One.

GO train service to MCC is necessary. So is a Bloor line extension to MCC. So is a Eglinton LRT extension to connect with the Mississauga BRT. Doesn't mean we should cancel any of them.
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Imagine how angry scarborough would be if Missy got a subway and they didn't. DRL and Bloor -East should be done. We have to focus on the city first.
 
Coruscanti Cognoscente said:
We are discussing extensions of Yonge vs Bloor. What's on the existing subway is a moot point. If you wanna discuss destinations along the extension that's fine. The Bloor line would have Square One. What would Yonge have? Like seriously, what is up there?

Frequent GO service on the Milton line would be great, so would diverting the line to Square One.

GO train service to MCC is necessary. So is a Bloor line extension to MCC. So is a Eglinton LRT extension to connect with the Mississauga BRT. Doesn't mean we should cancel any of them.
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My point is that if there isn't anything on the current Bloor-Danforth line that anyone in Mississauga would like to travel to, why does it have to be an extension of the Bloor-Danforth line? "Because it's closest to Mississauga right now" in my mind isn't a good rationale. For the foreseeable future, it's going to be a GO service expansion to Cooksville (and possibly Sq 1) and ONE of either a) an Eglinton LRT extension, or b) a Bloor-Danforth extension.

If money is finite, personally I would much rather see the money that would have been spent on the Bloor-Danforth extension spent on both a GO tunnel to Sq 1, and an Eglinton LRT extension to Sq 1. You're looking at ballpark, the same amount. By that I mean you're tunnelling from Cooksville to Sq 1 in either scenario, but the added cost of extending B-D from either Kipling or Sherway to Cooksville is probably still way more than it would cost to upgrade the Mississauga Transitway to carry the Eglinton LRT.

Given the choice between: a) GO tunnel spur to Sq 1 + Eglinton to Sq 1, or; b) Bloor-Danforth to Sq1, I'd definitely choose A, because it addresses both local and regional trip patterns. They'd cost roughly similar amounts. Of course that is assuming the money is there. Doing all 3 though would double the pricetag of just doing A or just doing B.

And like I said above, Yonge has many intermediate destinations, including NYCC and Yonge+Eg.

Coruscanti Cognoscente said:
There is absolutely no indication that Phase II of Eglinton would be grade-separated along the western segment. None. We like to talk about it on this board, but the presentation boards do NOT show that.
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Phase II is back to Square One (no pun intended) at this point. The last drawings for that section where made back even before Ford was elected, and before Metrolinx took control of the project. Given the design changes that Metrolinx has instituted since it took over, I wouldn't be surprised to see that entire western section go through a complete redesign. The door is wide open at this point, IMO.
 
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innsertnamehere said:
The problem is that the Yonge extension is needed, but we need the DRL first. Metrolinx has identified this fact, and anyone who thinks otherwise obviously never takes transit and never plans to take the extension themselves. I find it similar to the Sheppard subway, and line that adds significant ridership to the Yonge line simply cannot happen until the DRL is built. all the capacity upgrades being performed on the line right now will be sucked up by latent demand and the new ridership coming from the ECLRT and SELRT.
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No one now disagrees we need a DRL first (or at least at the same time) but for too long no one at City Hall thought a DRL was much of a priority at all. Because Yonge is so far ahead in the pipeline it's possible funding for Yonge comes through without a DRL. If that happens we'll have a huge problem.


As for a BD extension, Mississauga has shown zero interest, even in the middle of Metrolinx setting long-term priorities. It's just wishful thinking if Mississauga isn't pushing for it.
 
nfitz said:
The subway was extended to Scarborough in 1968. It was further extended deeper into Scarborough in the early 1980s.
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it's not enough. It needs to be extended further into Scarborough. I don't care about subway vs LRT. If we're talking "Rapid Transit" Eglinton East should have have been elevated past Don Mills to be merge with the RT as a single line all the way to Sheppard east

Seems to me that York Region thinks LRT is second rated for them. It's subway or nothing
 
nfitz said:
The subway was extended to Scarborough in 1968. It was further extended deeper into Scarborough in the early 1980s.
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Solid Snake said:
it's not enough. It needs to be extended further into Scarborough. I don't care about subway vs LRT. If we're talking "Rapid Transit" Eglinton East should have have been elevated past Don Mills to be merge with the RT as a single line all the way to Sheppard east

Seems to me that York Region thinks LRT is second rated for them. It's subway or nothing
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The RT is not a subway. Scarborough needs 2 lines and then needs to be rezoned for high density development.
 
Solid Snake said:
it's not enough. It needs to be extended further into Scarborough. I don't care about subway vs LRT. If we're talking "Rapid Transit" Eglinton East should have have been elevated past Don Mills to be merge with the RT as a single line all the way to Sheppard east

Seems to me that York Region thinks LRT is second rated for them. It's subway or nothing
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The issues with merging ECLRT with SRT have been discussed before. But I do agree that ECLRT should be elevated and it should continue further east along Eglinton into Scarborough. The transit situation is Scarborough is disgraceful.
 
Solid Snake said:
Seems to me that York Region thinks LRT is second rated for them. It's subway or nothing
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Because of the ridership projections. I think comparing York Region's "We want a subway!" to Rob Ford's "Subways! Subways! Subways!" is more than a little unfair. If Toronto's border was at Highway 7 instead of Steeles this wouldn't even be a discussion.\

Even if LRT were justifiable now - which is debatable - it would be quickly overwhelmed by the time it's built.

Originally Posted by Coruscanti Cognoscente
We are discussing extensions of Yonge vs Bloor. What's on the existing subway is a moot point. If you wanna discuss destinations along the extension that's fine. The Bloor line would have Square One. What would Yonge have? Like seriously, what is up there?
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The homes of the most of the people now riding the Yonge subway? A population of another 50,000 or so by the time the extension is built? It's a bit of a chicken/egg thing since there are significant PLANNED destinations that are contingent on the subway. In the meantime, as others have pointed out here, Vaughan and Markham have already passed new secondary plans for Yonge Street. It's Toronto that's putting all its chips on downtown condos, it seems.

Look at the four corners of Yonge/Steeles and the two with the stronger intensification zoning are in the "the suburbs" while "the city" has a half-assed mall that just got a new Target. #Ironic
 
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TJ O'Pootertoot said:
Because of the ridership projections. I think comparing York Region's "We want a subway!" to Rob Ford's "Subways! Subways! Subways!" is more than a little unfair. If Toronto's border was at Highway 7 instead of Steeles this wouldn't even be a discussion.\

Even if LRT were justifiable now - which is debatable - it would be quickly overwhelmed by the time it's built.
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I'm talking about Eglinton crosstown BTW. From Metrolinx own numbers:

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/project...lintonScarboroughCrosstownUpdate_Feb72012.pdf

Ridership – forecasted to increase by 30%, and peak hour travel to increase from 5,400 passengers to 12,000 passengers
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Eglinton would have subway numbers as well but yet, I'm not saying we should bury the line and have subway trains. Elevating Eglinton east of Don Mills to Kennedy is reasonable and have many advantages and would be fair to that part of the city.

And besides, no DRL means they should forget about it and the TTC has the same position on the matter.

Toronto has a serious lack of rapid transit and it's time we fix that first. I'm not saying that Richmond Hill should never have the subway. I'm saying that in the meantime we have way more pressing matters than to accommodate York Region right now. They are already getting a subway in Vaughan.


York Region
Population (2011)
Total 1,032,524
Density 585.9/km2 (1,517/sq mi)

Scarborough
Population (2006)
Total 602,575
Density 3,160.9/km2 (8,187/sq mi)

Ignoring those numbers is just being dishonest. This is a real problem here. I know why it's being done politically. It's sexier to give subways to the outer suburbs than Scarborough. Hey, it worked for Vaughan, but this city has failed Scarborough.

The crosstown being elevated is fair, reasonable and cost effective.
 
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But you also have to acknowledge these numbers...

York Region Population 2006 892,712
York Region Population 2011 1,032,524 = 15.7% increase

Toronto 2006 population 2,503,281
Toronto 2011 population 2,615,060= 4.5% increase

That trend isn't changing dramatically in Toronto's favour, if at all. And if you don't have those suburbanites overloading Yonge/Bloor you can definitely expect them to overload the 404 and 400. You're sure not going to improve those density numbers if you choose NOT to build RT in the burbs. The reason there is some density in Scarborough, and certainly in North York, is precisely because transit was extended there when some people would have denied those areas that same infrastructure, saying it was "hinterland." Now the pattern is repeating itself and the choice is before us.

I think we all agree there's a huge deficit of RT in Toronto and the region at large. It's a losing game trying to say any one given project needs to be built first, because they all do. I think the TTC has (for somewhat understandable reasons) been trying to just make do for far too long. York Region (and the province) wanting to bring the subway up north and, more generally, to try to create transit-oriented development in the suburbs has forced Toronto to realize its longstanding shortfalls. Is there any chance DRL work would have begun in earnest this decade without the Yonge subway EA process?

Those two strands of need have to be resolved and, I don't know, maybe the only way for the province to help 416 and also remake the 905 by 2031 is to assume control of TTC's RT lines....but I don't think either of these two efforts can be neglected or all you've done is build a new, much-needed line without solving any larger, regional issues.
 
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