Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[jaycola]

Ignoring those numbers is just being dishonest. This is a real problem here. I know why it's being done politically. It's sexier to give subways to the outer suburbs than Scarborough. Hey, it worked for Vaughan, but this city has failed Scarborough.

Using those numbers is dishonest. The city of Toronto is 630 km2, Scarborough 187km2. York Region is 1762km2 and runs from Steeles to Lake Simcoe.

Thornhill and Richmond Hill, the areas most closely affected by subway expansion have densities of 1670/km2 and 1838/km2 respectively.

What's most important however is that by far the bulk of these citizens live in the narrow band between Dufferin and Leslie, each just 4 km from Yonge Street.

Look at the GTA density map. York region is centered around Yonge Street and by providing Rapid Transit along this route alone will service most of the communities north of the city effectively.

 

[gweed123]

So what is wrong with the Richmond Hill GO line? they can't expand that instead?

South of Sheppard, it's pretty much useless for anybody in Toronto or anybody from YR not going to Union. A transfer at Eglinton would be tough, and a transfer at Bloor-Danforth would be so cumbersome that nobody would use it.

It's very much in contrast to lines going to Hamilton, Brampton, Milton, Markham, or Oshawa, all of which hit multiple transfer points on their way to Union.

If they follow the same formula used in the Spadina extension, no.

However, there are some benefits to this. Toronto should have exclusive control over the operation of the line. But my preferred arrangement will be for Toronto to have exclusive control over operation of the extension and for York Region to pick up the expenses.

Ultimately, the TTC and the various York Region transit services will fold into one. It doesn't make much sense to have multiple groups operating what will effectively be a single transportation system. Whether this will be operated by TTC or Metrolinx is yet to be seen.

But unlike Spadina, it's quite likely that a Yonge extension would actually turn a net profit for the TTC (revenue > maintenance expenses). So that changes the dynamic compared to Spadina.

 

[Ansem]

If they follow the same formula used in the Spadina extension, no.

However, there are some benefits to this. Toronto should have exclusive control over the operation of the line. But my preferred arrangement will be for Toronto to have exclusive control over operation of the extension and for York Region to pick up the expenses.

Ultimately, the TTC and the various York Region transit services will fold into one. It doesn't make much sense to have multiple groups operating what will effectively be a single transportation system. Whether this will be operated by TTC or Metrolinx is yet to be seen.




The Toronto Transit Commission. It's been that way since at least Metro Toronto was formed in the 50s.

Thank you for the answers.

I've been busy since I recently bought a townhouse in Liberty Village. I think asking questions is the best thing do before giving an opinion on something so here's mine. As a transit enthusiast, the more transit the better. As a Toronto taxpayer, I do have an issue with it.

1-I'm not against the principle of York Region having a subway, or thinking regionally about how transit is planned and delivered. However, I do believe that the way things are being done NOW is unfair to Scarborough at this time.

If they follow the same formula used in the Spadina extension, no.

However, there are some benefits to this. Toronto should have exclusive control over the operation of the line. But my preferred arrangement will be for Toronto to have exclusive control over operation of the extension and for York Region to pick up the expenses.

I feel that this formula is not good enough. The Vaughan extension is a copy/paste of Laval extension in Montreal. Montreal keeps all the fares, have exclusive control over the operation of the line and yet Montreal has made not only Laval and Longueuil pay their share of operating costs but also all the surrounding suburbs as well. This was the only way to be fair to the Montreal taxpayers and those who have been waiting for the Blue line extension for years. But we see eye to eye on that since you do favor that formula too.

Ultimately, the TTC and the various York Region transit services will fold into one. It doesn't make much sense to have multiple groups operating what will effectively be a single transportation system. Whether this will be operated by TTC or Metrolinx is yet to be seen.

This would be the best scenario. If everything was under Metrolinx, this argument would be pointless. My problem here is that you and others use the words "ultimately, eventually, probably". Only Hudak brought it up so far. From a Toronto taxpayer's perspective, it's unacceptable.

So, in the meantime, my taxes will give subway service to York Region, yet their taxes won't pay for the maintenance and operating costs... Toronto taxpayers would prefer their taxes to enhance the rapid transit network within their city until the TTC gets uploaded or the the GTA or whoever gets the subway helps pay for the bill.

At least if the Ontario government was subsidizing the TTC, we could make the argument that everyone in the region is paying for the TTC so building subways outside of city limits makes sense...

This is where Toronto unique situation is unique. Many cities in North America and Europe extends their subways outside their city limits. Unlike Toronto, cities like Montreal, New York, Chicago, Paris and London are subsidize by regional, provincial, states or/and federal governments as well.

This is not the case here. TTC's revenue is from the fares and the city of Toronto subsidy which came from Toronto taxpayers. That's a huge burden compare to anywhere else on the continent. So we pay so that York can have a subway. It doesn't make sense.

Do I blame York? Not really. I blame Toronto's city council. Like snake said before, "they failed this city." I'll even quote Karen Stinz during the LRT vs Subway debate : "We failed this city"

Until Toronto gets a better deal on the York extension or the TTC get's uploaded, I have to disagree with that extension.

The Toronto Transit Commission. It's been that way since at least Metro Toronto was formed in the 50s.

There has been comparisons between York Region getting a subway and North York, Scarborough and Etobicoke getting the extension.

On the Island of Montreal, the STM used to be STCUM. Even if you lived in a city that was not part of Montreal, the island's (Westmont, Hampstead, Kirland etc...) taxpayers paid their share to operate the STCUM including subways. Despite that, the subway conveniently avoids to enter their city except for (Verdun, Lasalle and Ville St-Laurent. I disagree with that since i feel there's an anglo vs franco source). There was an outrage when the Laval extension was announced.

So, to my understanding, North York, Scarborough and Etobicoke have been paying taxes to the TTC since the 50s. For the subway to be extended to those part of the city made sense.

If York Region would have the same taxation model than Laval or if the TTC was provincially subsidized, it would be fine. But as a taxpayer, it annoys me that my city is doing that.

From a transit planning, ridership point of view, the extension should be made. From a taxpayer's point of view, it sucks and it's an annoyance. If I owned in Scarborough, it think I'd be beyond pissed.

and BTW

Laval being a copy of what the Richmond Hill extension will look like since the Orange line works exactly like the Yonge line. It's been great for the Lavallois but it's been horrible for Montrealers ever since. Even with the short turning of trains, the service has been terrible ever since and they don;t know what to do. The new trains won't fix anything. Montrealers are extremely dissatisfy with the service and see no benefits from it.

DRL must be build to Eglinton as a strict minimum or the Yonge line be just like the Orange line

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Using those numbers is dishonest. The city of Toronto is 630 km2, Scarborough 187km2. York Region is 1762km2 and runs from Steeles to Lake Simcoe.

Thornhill and Richmond Hill, the areas most closely affected by subway expansion have densities of 1670/km2 and 1838/km2 respectively.

What's most important however is that by far the bulk of these citizens live in the narrow band between Dufferin and Leslie, each just 4 km from Yonge Street.

Look at the GTA density map. York region is centered around Yonge Street and by providing Rapid Transit along this route alone will service most of the communities north of the city effectively.

That's not at all what I just said but if you want to go down that road I'll point out, for like the 20th time on this thread, that York Region AND Toronto completed an EA for the Yonge extension. it's effectively shovel ready. It was only during that process that the TTC started THINKING about the DRL. Toronto Council attached caveats but they already approved the Yonge extension. No reasonable person thinks the DRL isn't a priority or that isn't necessary to relieve the capacity issues but I'm not sure why the entire GTA should be punished for TTC's incompetence and lack of foresight. Build both projects, start with the one that's actually ready.

It's amusing that TTC will pitch the DRL as crucial not just for Toronto but for the REGION and then people turn around and bitch about how the Yonge subway is only serving the suburbs. It cuts both ways and if the TTC is going to be a big part of a larger regional network, it's time to start thinking a little bigger. Slowing down one of the few ambitious suburban transit plans isn't a good start.

And the GO line is an entirely separate argument, which has ALSO been discussed ad naeseum in this thread. It goes to Union Station. It doesn't help people commuting to Bloor or Eglinton or Sheppard or anywhere other than Union Station and it doesn't do anything whatsoever for the already-zoned intensification plans along Yonge Street. Even if GO or the subway expansion were announced tomorrow, it would in no way mitigate the need for the other.

Beacuse it's only servicing the Burbs. And 3 burbs at that.

 

[kEiThZ]

The entire problem here is that we are still relying on slow subways for long-haul when Scarborough, North York, Richmond Hill, etc. residents should be using GO lines when heading to the core. The subway line should be getting extended to provide local travel. ie. If you want to go from Hwy. 7 to Sheppard or Finch to Eglinton.

As long as we keep up this ridiculous division where 416 residents ride subways for 30 stops to get downtown and 905ers are supposed to ride GO, we'll keep getting fights over ancillary issues (like what should really be a no-brainer extension here).

One huge reason, I wouldn't mind seeing this extension go ahead, even if the DRL hasn't is to move all the bus traffic to Finch and along Yonge, out of the 416. Ditto for all the car traffic and people getting dropped off. That should get some solace to Yonge residents and businesses.

 

[xtremesniper]

This discussion is nutty. More than 30% of York Region is protected land in the Greenbelt or Oak Ridges Moraine and, even discounting that, there's still a fair amount of agricultural and other undeveloped lands that are totally separate from this subway discussion. The Richmond Hill density figure is a prime example. I don't think there's a MORAINE running through the middle of Toronto, is there? Cut off everything in RH north of Elgin Mills (after all, the subway isn't going up to Oak Ridges) and that density figure will spike significantly.

So, Markham is only 1/2 of Scarborough. Let's go back in time 40 years, pretend we're discussing extending the subway from Eglinton to Finch and see if we don't find the exact same argument about the density in Toronto vs. the density in North York. Without that extension (and North York Centre) the spine of condos stretching from the 401 to Finch wouldn't exist. I still don't see how their previous non-existence is a reason not to have built the subway. Quite the opposite, actually.

One might as well throw in the density of Etobicoke as proof the DRL isn't needed. No one disputes York Region is a "suburb" (in that it's further from downtown than Scarborough) but to suggest there's some radical difference, for example, between Willowdale and Thornhill is silly. The density along the Yonge corridor is surely comparable, based only on what's there today. The whole reason you GET auto-oriented areas like York Region is by failing to build the kind of transit that allows Scarborough to attain that higher density. We're really missing the whole cause/effect thing.

"Scarborough is in the city and should get the subway first," is a statement with no logic to it whatsoever and substantiates my earlier point that if the Toronto border were at Hwy. 7, this discussion wouldn't be happening. Maybe we should forget about antiquated, obsolete notions of what constitutes "the city" and what constitutes "the suburbs" based upon lines drawn by provincial bureaucrats on a map 40 years ago and build transit where it's needed and likely to achieve its ends.

Amen.

That's not at all what I just said but if you want to go down that road I'll point out, for like the 20th time on this thread, that York Region AND Toronto completed an EA for the Yonge extension. it's effectively shovel ready. It was only during that process that the TTC started THINKING about the DRL. Toronto Council attached caveats but they already approved the Yonge extension. No reasonable person thinks the DRL isn't a priority or that isn't necessary to relieve the capacity issues but I'm not sure why the entire GTA should be punished for TTC's incompetence and lack of foresight. Build both projects, start with the one that's actually ready.

It's amusing that TTC will pitch the DRL as crucial not just for Toronto but for the REGION and then people turn around and bitch about how the Yonge subway is only serving the suburbs. It cuts both ways and if the TTC is going to be a big part of a larger regional network, it's time to start thinking a little bigger. Slowing down one of the few ambitious suburban transit plans isn't a good start.

And the GO line is an entirely separate argument, which has ALSO been discussed ad naeseum in this thread. It goes to Union Station. It doesn't help people commuting to Bloor or Eglinton or Sheppard or anywhere other than Union Station and it doesn't do anything whatsoever for the already-zoned intensification plans along Yonge Street. Even if GO or the subway expansion were announced tomorrow, it would in no way mitigate the need for the other.

Hallelujah!

As a Toronto taxpayer, I do have an issue with it.

Generally, I don't find discussions that revolve around who pays what tax to be worthwhile. Transit is public. Are you going to penalize tourists who come to the city because they didn't pay taxes to build the infrastructure?

To those who seem to constantly forget, for the bulk of TTC projects and initiatives, a large sum of their capital funding comes from the provincial and federal levels. Both of which are taxes that York Region residents pay handsomely.

All this is yet another argument toward bringing together all of transit under Metrolinx, like almost every other rational city in the world has done, and be done with these arguments about who paid who's tax.

PS: People in northern Ontario aren't exactly ecstatic to be paying for your transit either. But that's just how the world turns.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Amen.



Hallelujah!



Generally, I don't find discussions that revolve around who pays what tax to be worthwhile. Transit is public. Are you going to penalize tourists who come to the city because they didn't pay taxes to build the infrastructure?

To those who seem to constantly forget, for the bulk of TTC projects and initiatives, a large sum of their capital funding comes from the provincial and federal levels. Both of which are taxes that York Region residents pay handsomely.

All this is yet another argument toward bringing together all of transit under Metrolinx, like almost every other rational city in the world has done, and be done with these arguments about who paid who's tax.

PS: People in northern Ontario aren't exactly ecstatic to be paying for your transit either. But that's just how the world turns.

The TTC is not subsidized by the province anymore, for over 15 years.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The TTC is not subsidized by the province anymore, for over 15 years.

The TTC's operation budget is not subsidized by the federal government. Same as the province.

The only western government that does not subsidize urban transit operations.

Only recently, has the federal government given a "token" subsidy towards capital building of public transit (Transit City). The province has been subsidizing capital projects, but could be withdrawn.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Beacuse it's only servicing the Burbs. And 3 burbs at that.

Are you being ironic or are you actually, seriously suggesting that the point of the TTC is not to serve suburbanites? You know, maybe the logical thing to do is have the suburbs build their own transit systems and, then I can ride York Region Transit's second subway all the way downtown while 416ers can produce a passport to board the TTC. We'll just take off the 905ers off of TTC, and maybe they should stop working in Toronto and buying their coffees there and eating lunch there, and then you can tell me how good the Island of Toronto does on its own; the Burbs being such a different place from The City, and all.

I'm also curious what the "3 burbs" are (Vaughan, Markham and RH?) and how you think the people that live there now get downtown?

Really, the more I read this thread, and see the same ridiculous points coming up every 10 pages or so, the more I think, as Xtremesniper said Metrolinx needs to take over the entire system because clearly there are, to my amazement, some people who sincerely don't understand how the region functions, economically and otherwise. Then we can have a new funding arrangement so the Torontonians who have no clue how economically dependent they are on the 905 will have no more reason to stop bitching about how their tax $ (which in terms of property tax, are well below 905 levels) being spent outside where someone drew a line that no longer has any meaning; except that it helps to find where in the GTA the people who voted for Rob Ford live.

Take a look, man. The suburbs are part of the city. There are people who live down in Ossington who likely think Leaside is the suburbs and there are people who live in Forest Hill who think Etobicoke is the suburbs and there are people in North York who think Thornhill is the suburbs and there are people in Thornhill who think Aurora is the suburbs. When all these people realize they're wrong, we can all move forward. This territorial pissing is totally counter-productive in a region facing traffic issues (because people in the suburbs have limited transit options) and decades of necessary, unbuilt transit projects. The Yonge subway extension is about as much of a no-brainer as you can get (so is the DRL) and saying you don't want to build it because "oh, that's not a line for TORONTO, that's a line for the SUBURBS" is just ridiculous.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

So, to my understanding, North York, Scarborough and Etobicoke have been paying taxes to the TTC since the 50s. For the subway to be extended to those part of the city made sense.

If York Region would have the same taxation model than Laval or if the TTC was provincially subsidized, it would be fine. But as a taxpayer, it annoys me that my city is doing that.

From a transit planning, ridership point of view, the extension should be made. From a taxpayer's point of view, it sucks and it's an annoyance. If I owned in Scarborough, it think I'd be beyond pissed.

I share your anger over this arrangement. It’s not fair at all. However, I believe the extension will only cost $8 Million/year to operate (someone please correct me if I’m wrong). That is such a relatively small amount that I don’t think it’s worth battling York Region and the Province over. Plus, the TTC retains full control of fares. Charging $4 north of Steeles for an adult ride should be able to cover the operating costs of the extension. It’s not an ideal situation, but I can live with it. If York Region politicians complain that they have to pay 33% more than Toronto per trip, Council will simply tell them to hand Toronto $8 Million/year and the problem goes away.

Laval being a copy of what the Richmond Hill extension will look like since the Orange line works exactly like the Yonge line. It's been great for the Lavallois but it's been horrible for Montrealers ever since. Even with the short turning of trains, the service has been terrible ever since and they don;t know what to do. The new trains won't fix anything. Montrealers are extremely dissatisfy with the service and see no benefits from it.

Exactly why I’m so split on the extension. As much as I want York Region to have rapid transit, it must not damage network integrity. Even with the DRL and to Eglinton and Automatic Train Control (ATC), this extension could be damaging. Toronto/Metrolinx will almost surely need to explore other Yonge relief options after the DRL opens. The DRL extension to Sheppard/Finch/Hwy 7 and/or a Yonge Express line will need to be examined in the next 15 years. There are few other solutions I can think of.

 

[EnviroTO]

Are we sure that there are any operating costs associated with the Yonge line extension to Langstaff to be picked up once the revenues are factored in? On the Spadina extension to Vaughan which I would expect to be less used they are expecting operating costs of $9 million with 80% recovery which is only a $1.8 million annual shortfall to be funded. On a much more heavily used line isn't it quite possible that the ridership covers the costs?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Are we sure that there are any operating costs associated with the Yonge line extension to Langstaff to be picked up once the revenues are factored in? On the Spadina extension to Vaughan which I would expect to be less used they are expecting operating costs of $9 million with 80% recovery which is only a $1.8 million annual shortfall to be funded. On a much more heavily used line isn't it quite possible that the ridership covers the costs?

Absolutely. I wouldn't be surprised if the TTC makes a profit off this extension.

 

[Ansem]

Generally, I don't find discussions that revolve around who pays what tax to be worthwhile.

Spoken like someone who doesn't pay property taxes

Transit is public. Are you going to penalize tourists who come to the city because they didn't pay taxes to build the infrastructure?

Very poor analogy, try again. They pay fares, that's enough.

To those who seem to constantly forget, for the bulk of TTC projects and initiatives, a large sum of their capital funding comes from the provincial and federal levels. Both of which are taxes that York Region residents pay handsomely.

So what? I should be glad that I must cover the operating cost for York Region when they won't while that extension won't benefit me at all? I guess that makes New York, Chicago and Montreal look like greedy pigs...huh...

All this is yet another argument toward bringing together all of transit under Metrolinx, like almost every other rational city in the world has done, and be done with these arguments about who paid who's tax.

agreed. Until then I have the right to be unhappy with the Status quo. Only Tim Hudak brought it up so far.

PS: People in northern Ontario aren't exactly ecstatic to be paying for your transit either. But that's just how the world turns.

The province isn't subsidizing the TTC. With that kind of logic I could say that Toronto is not ecstatic to pay for Northern Ontario's infrastructure

 

[kEiThZ]

All this is yet another argument toward bringing together all of transit under Metrolinx, like almost every other rational city in the world has done, and be done with these arguments about who paid who's tax.

The one idea from the provincial Conservatives that I fully agree with. As a 416 resident/ratepayer, I'm sick of the bun fight. Why can't I get up to RHC on a subway?

I have long held that the TTC should be split up. Let the city keep responsibilty for feeder bus and streetcar routes. These routes are where ratepayers more directly determine the level of subsidy and/or service. And let Metrolinx take over the more capital intensive subway network and merge that with GO. We'll finally get real regional transit capabilities with zoned fares.

 

[EnviroTO]

Spoken like someone who doesn't pay property taxes

Spoken like someone who doesn't pay income tax?