Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[TheTigerMaster]

With the polls saying no more money from taxpayers, maybe we'd better put the extension on the back burner for now.



They want the Yonge Subway Extension, but don't want to pay for it. The Yonge Subway Extension was part of the Big Move. The question remains, do they need the Yonge Subway Extension enough to pay for it?

Remember the OneCity Transit Plan? I'm not sure what the exact number was, but 80%-90% of people supported increased taxes to pay for it. People need to be shown what they'll be getting before they're willing to spend extra.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

52% said it would be unfair to ask residents to contribute to the Big Move

WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE!?

Who do they expect to contribute to it? It's OUR transit after all. Therefor WE have to pay for it. I cannot imagine why it is so hard for people to understand this.

 

[44 North]

They want the Yonge Subway Extension, but don't want to pay for it. The Yonge Subway Extension was part of the Big Move. The question remains, do they need the Yonge Subway Extension enough to pay for it?

Looks like a downgrade to a Yonge LRT Extension to Richmond Hill might be in order. Create the same kind of platform to platform transfer as the SELRT is supposed to have at Don Mills. Seems reasonable to me, since I think extending Yonge into the hinterland is a terrible idea.

 

[nfitz]

Looks like a downgrade to a Yonge LRT Extension to Richmond Hill might be in order. Create the same kind of platform to platform transfer as the SELRT is supposed to have at Don Mills. Seems reasonable to me, since I think extending Yonge into the hinterland is a terrible idea.

How do you move 20,000 passengers an hour on LRT? 9-car trains?

 

[GenerationW]

Nor is it the TTCs responsibility to operate an extension that will compromise network integrity.

If it gets funded, the TTC will be all smiles at the press conference and will find a way to operate it.

So move it to steeles. And then revisit it later.

There is no chance they'd put TBMs in the ground for just a two station extension only to revisit a further extension later. It'll be all or nothing.

Looks like a downgrade to a Yonge LRT Extension to Richmond Hill might be in order. Create the same kind of platform to platform transfer as the SELRT is supposed to have at Don Mills. Seems reasonable to me, since I think extending Yonge into the hinterland is a terrible idea.

There isn't much hinterland on Yonge over that stretch, and York Region has no reason to not push for a Yonge extension since they were successful extending Spadina into some real hinterland. I think they have a realistic chance at getting Yonge approved with or without a DRL, and it says a lot that York Region now seems to have more influence over the expansion of our subway system than Toronto does.

 

[BurlOak]

Remember the OneCity Transit Plan? I'm not sure what the exact number was, but 80%-90% of people supported increased taxes to pay for it.

I actually do not remember that at all.

People need to be shown what they'll be getting before they're willing to spend extra.

WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE!?

Who do they expect to contribute to it? It's OUR transit after all. Therefor WE have to pay for it. I cannot imagine why it is so hard for people to understand this.

You answered your question in the previous post. I would add that they need to accpet what the money is being spent on too.

These people are willing to spend (contribute) money on an appropriate transit plan - but not on the Big Move. Part of the problem is the lack of promotion of the plan. And I do not mean commercials with people riding LRT's through near empty streets. I mean showing graphically where the transit will be built an how much each segment will cost. The most visible and publicized transit now being built/planned is putting LRT in the median on Eglinton, on Sheppard, and on Finch. The people extrapolate based on there (dis)approval of this first part and denounce the entire plan - if these are the priorities, the rest of the plan must be even worse.

Somtimes it is easier to ask for a bit more money for something good, then less money for something bad. You could save a few hundred million if you build LRT instead of subway, and had the LRT in the median from Royal Orchard to Clark since there is a bit more room and less demand there - the rest would be underground, with the cross-platform transfer at Finch. The same way you could save a couple of hundred million by building Eglinton in the median through Scarborough where there is a bit of room and less demand - with the rest underground, and have a forced, albeit simplified, transfer at Kennedy. Would anyone accept this Yonge plan because it would cost a bit less?

 

[Rainforest]

Somtimes it is easier to ask for a bit more money for something good, then less money for something bad. You could save a few hundred million if you build LRT instead of subway, and had the LRT in the median from Royal Orchard to Clark since there is a bit more room and less demand there - the rest would be underground, with the cross-platform transfer at Finch. The same way you could save a couple of hundred million by building Eglinton in the median through Scarborough where there is a bit of room and less demand - with the rest underground, and have a forced, albeit simplified, transfer at Kennedy. Would anyone accept this Yonge plan because it would cost a bit less?

The main reason of transfer at Kennedy is not that part of LRT is in median, but that its tunneled section closer to Yonge cannot handle all riders from both SRT and Eglinton who wish to reach Yonge. This constraint will not change, no matter how you build the eastern section.

Either Eglinton itself had to be build as subway (which is out of question at this point), or riders from SRT have to be encouraged to take Danforth subway if they are heading to the downtown area.

 

[Rainforest]

If you look at the Passenger Demand Forecast appendix of the March 2012 Concept Design Report you'll see that if they build the subway, the peak load heading southbound, just north of Finch station (i.e. those arriving at Finch on the new subway) is 20,130 passenger per hour (per direction). This is much more than LRT can handle.

Btw, some of their ridership numbers are suspiciously high. Are they really going to get 5,660 riders per hour transferring from westbound YRT / VIVA to subway at RHC? I would believe 2,000, maybe 2,500, but not 5,000+.

Why would 460 people per hour transfer from GO train to subway at RHC? If they are going to get on subway, it is much easier to take a surface route, unless they live within a 2 min work from a GO station further north.

And I doubt that the westbound Cummer bus will bring 710 riders per hour to Cummer station; based on the practical frequency of 8-10 min, 500 riders is more believable.

So, I would scale their 20,130 riders forecast, using a BS factor of about 0.75. Though, the remaining 15,000 is still a large number, that is not easy to handle with LRT.

 

[drum118]

Btw, some of their ridership numbers are suspiciously high. Are they really going to get 5,660 riders per hour transferring from westbound YRT / VIVA to subway at RHC? I would believe 2,000, maybe 2,500, but not 5,000+.

Why would 460 people per hour transfer from GO train to subway at RHC? If they are going to get on subway, it is much easier to take a surface route, unless they live within a 2 min work from a GO station further north.

And I doubt that the westbound Cummer bus will bring 710 riders per hour to Cummer station; based on the practical frequency of 8-10 min, 500 riders is more believable.

So, I would scale their 20,130 riders forecast, using a BS factor of about 0.75. Though, the remaining 15,000 is still a large number, that is not easy to handle with LRT.

Take the current numbers for 1 & purple and multiply it by 5% compound yearly until 2031 and you will see what the total ridership is for then. Do the same thing for Blue and 91?.

Between those numbers, you will have a total what the ridership will be by transit. Add 5,500 for riders moving from Finch to RHC that come by car.

Last numbers I did for Blue at peak time was 875/hr and if you multiply it by 7% compound yearly until 2031, you will get total ridership at peak time. It will be far below the projected forecast. Even if you go to 10%, below forecast and well in range of an LRT on the surface.

The TBM should be in the ground now to extend the line to Steeles with a provision to take the line north if the needs are really needed. You can built the launch shaft at the same time that has a removal roof to remove the TBM from RHC if the extension is built.

As for Cummer station, it will be a little higher than 500 since it will be a short ride and draw in non riders.

With the plan development for the 4 corners, ridership will spike at this station as well at Steeles for new walk-in riders.

 

[nfitz]

There is no chance they'd put TBMs in the ground for just a two station extension only to revisit a further extension later. It'll be all or nothing.

I doubt that TTC would be interested in spending a lot of money to get to Steeles, without significant provincial and/or federal funding. And I doubt that would come without extending further.

However, from a construction point of view, there's no reason not to put TBMs in the ground for just a two station extension. If you look at the tunelling design, there's 3 pairs of tunnel drives. From from the south end of the Steeles station structure to the existing track north of Finch (through Cummer station). One from north of Steeles station, through Clarke station to south of the East Don River bridge. And one south of Richmond Hill Centre station, through Langstaff station to north of the East Don River bridge. Steeles station, Richmond Hill station, crossovers, some of the structure north of Finch, and about 800 metres of storage track north of Richmond Hill station towards future 16th Avenue station are cut-and-cover.

So as Steeles station is the launch location for TBMs heading both north and south, there's no technical reason not to build the first two stations. Not that I think it would happen.

Btw, some of their ridership numbers are suspiciously high. Are they really going to get 5,660 riders per hour transferring from westbound YRT / VIVA to subway at RHC? I would believe 2,000, maybe 2,500, but not 5,000+.

Does seem high - but this is based on 2031 development. And I don't know what those assumptions entail. Exhibit 4-4 shows the YRT/Viva bus network that would deliver this - 12 routes including VIVA Blue and VIVA Purple.

Why would 460 people per hour transfer from GO train to subway at RHC? If they are going to get on subway, it is much easier to take a surface route, unless they live within a 2 min work from a GO station further north

With 15-minute service in both directions. I wouldn't be shocked if 100 people per train switched. That's a couple of bus loads. They do assume that the line is extended to Bloomington by then. That might encourage people who are in Aurora, Newmarket, and up the 404 to drive to the GO station there, near the 404, take GO 4 stops to Richmond Hill Centre, and then take the subway to jobs in the Yonge/Sheppard or Yonge/Eglinton area. Mightn't be a bad commute at all.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Because it can't carry the expected load for the subway. And the GO takes people to Union station, which isn't where people are going.

If you look at the Passenger Demand Forecast appendix of the March 2012 Concept Design Report you'll see that if they build the subway, the peak load heading southbound, just north of Finch station (i.e. those arriving at Finch on the new subway) is 20,130 passenger per hour (per direction). This is much more than LRT can handle.

They also looked at GO Transit (see Section 5.4 of the appendix), and while 77% of the passengers who board at Richmond Hill Centre do get to Bloor-Yonge, only 35% travel past Dundas, and only 16% travel past King. With both systems built (15-minute GO service) they estimate that only 1,100 passengers per hour would board GO at Langstaff GO compared to 13,300 boarding the subway at Richmond Hill Centre.

Can we put a sticky on this so it doesn't have be explained 50 more times to people like...

Looks like a downgrade to a Yonge LRT Extension to Richmond Hill might be in order. Create the same kind of platform to platform transfer as the SELRT is supposed to have at Don Mills. Seems reasonable to me, since I think extending Yonge into the hinterland is a terrible idea.

....who think that Yonge and Highway 7 is "the hinterland." Factually inaccurate and totally counter-productive when it comes to confronting regional transit issues. By your definition, Finch circa 1974 would have been the equivalent of Lake Simcoe. There's so little "hinterland" up around Yonge/Steeles that you can't even find the municipal border in a satellite view .

I'm also confused by WK Lis pointing out that "They want the Yonge Subway Extension, but don't want to pay for it. The Yonge Subway Extension was part of the Big Move. The question remains, do they need the Yonge Subway Extension enough to pay for it?"

I don't see where in the article it indicates this is a poll of people in Richmond Hill/Thornhill...? The people who oppose transit funding at this point are living in a dream world but plenty of the people in that poll live in Toronto or Mississauga or who-knows-where. I suspect if you ask the question, around the affected area, whether people support revenue tools to see that specific project, you get different numbers. In the meantime, the connection you're drawing between the general poll and the specific extension seems tenuous at best. That article doesn't even have the word "Yonge" in it, and yet your post gets responses suggesting the results mean this one project should be on the backburner. I think I missed something. As pointed out elsewhere, people are more willing when they see a specific project the money will go to, which I suspect puts this area well ahead of most. Not everyone who supports The Big Move will see a subway built in their neighbourhood, after all.

York Region has put far more effort into getting the Yonge subway (including a willingness to pay its share) than Toronto has with the DRL. Crikey, they couldn't even follow through on the transit plan they developed five years ago (which didn't have the DRL, by the way). Indeed, the DRL wasn't even really on their radar until after York Region forced their hand. But by all means, let's continue to talk about the horror of a suburban municipality trying to build transit-oriented development, especially since its their residents already trekking down to Finch, working downtown etc. all while paying far more in property tax than Torontoinans.

There is a direct relationship between trying to stop further sprawl and building transit in the suburbs, of which the Yonge extension is probably the most obvious such project in the whole country. I might not expect the 52% in that poll to understand that, but I kind of do expect it around here.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

^If that's the case the sheppard should have been a subway to the city line(not STC) and kipling should have been extended to SQ1 or just sherway.

 

[innsertnamehere]

The problem is that the Yonge extension is needed, but we need the DRL first. Metrolinx has identified this fact, and anyone who thinks otherwise obviously never takes transit and never plans to take the extension themselves. I find it similar to the Sheppard subway, and line that adds significant ridership to the Yonge line simply cannot happen until the DRL is built. all the capacity upgrades being performed on the line right now will be sucked up by latent demand and the new ridership coming from the ECLRT and SELRT.

 

[Adjei]

With the polls saying no more money from taxpayers, maybe we'd better put the extension on the back burner for now.



They want the Yonge Subway Extension, but don't want to pay for it. The Yonge Subway Extension was part of the Big Move. The question remains, do they need the Yonge Subway Extension enough to pay for it?

Isn't that poll for all of the GTA and Hamilton, so this sentiment is felt across the region. Don't see the reason to paint this as what people people in York Region or those who want this subway extension are saying.

 

[gweed123]

^If that's the case the sheppard should have been a subway to the city line(not STC) and kipling should have been extended to SQ1 or just sherway.

Rapid transit to Sq 1 is definitely justified, but I don't think that Sheppard should go anywhere east of STC, because there isn't really the same type of 'anchor' in Durham until you get to downtown Oshawa. The closest thing to it is the Pickering GO and the mall there (and the whole barely a handful of office buildings and condos around it).

I also must point out that Bloor-Yonge to RHC is 19km, to Sq 1 is 22.5km, and to Pickering Centre is 30km. So RHC is the closest '905 Anchor Hub' to downtown Toronto.

I'd also like to say that if any Toronto RT should reach Sq 1, it should be the Eglinton Crosstown running parallel to (or replacing) the Mississauga Transitway. Much less expensive, much bigger chance of ever happening, and would provide similar network connections.