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junctionist said:
What they say about diesel and electric trains being about the same in terms of noise doesn't add up to the reality. Diesels are really loud, especially as they accelerate. Electric trains are noticeably quieter. Compare TTC buses to streetcars. Streetcars are generally quieter. Electrification of GO transit and the airport train would probably eliminate the need for a lot of those noise barriers.
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Comparing a diesel-powered GO train to a streetcar is akin to comparing a truck and a bicycle. There is a very, very big difference in scale in the things.

Having been on and around electric trains in the US and Europe, I can assure you that they are within a very small percentage of decibels to diesels. Most of the things that make noise on diesel locomotives are also found on electric locomotives.

Out of curiosity - when do you start complaining about the high-voltage wires and magnetic fields from the power lines necessary to run the electric trains? After they get installed, I assume?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
smallspy said:
Comparing a diesel-powered GO train to a streetcar is akin to comparing a truck and a bicycle. There is a very, very big difference in scale in the things.

Having been on and around electric trains in the US and Europe, I can assure you that they are within a very small percentage of decibels to diesels. Most of the things that make noise on diesel locomotives are also found on electric locomotives.

Out of curiosity - when do you start complaining about the high-voltage wires and magnetic fields from the power lines necessary to run the electric trains? After they get installed, I assume?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
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What if they use smart meters to measure the electricity used? There will be even more complaints then.
 
I was comparing a bus to a streetcar. Streetcars are generally quieter. There was an electric train line behind my grandfather's house in Poland. The only noticeable noise was the clanging from the tracks because the tracks weren't welded like they are today. You couldn't hear the engines of trains at all. The same can't be said about diesel trains. Magnetic fields are probably no problem with modern design standards.
 
junctionist said:
I was comparing a bus to a streetcar. Streetcars are generally quieter.
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Are they? Maybe its because the sounds emanating are different, but I can easily tell when a streetcar is approaching my local stop from a distance. I have a much harder time doing that with a bus.

junctionist said:
There was an electric train line behind my grandfather's house in Poland. The only noticeable noise was the clanging from the tracks because the tracks weren't welded like they are today. You couldn't hear the engines of trains at all. The same can't be said about diesel trains.
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I would endeavour to suggest that the trains you saw were EMUs, and thus had no locomotives at all. Most of the passenger trains running in Europe are, although there are some loco-hauled services still in some countries. DMUs are the same in that regard - they are a bit quieter than trains pulled by a diesel engine as all of the ancillary devices are smaller and spread out along the length of the train.

junctionist said:
Magnetic fields are probably no problem with modern design standards.
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Riiiiiiiiight.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
vic said:
I live on Symington Ave., and I don't hear the trains clickety clacking or gliding along the rails. I only hear the engines (and bells/horns...).

But I'm really tired of hearing the same story about "interface impact loading" and "clickety clack" from what sounds like people who have never actually been along these tracks / stations when trains are coming through.
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I'm really tired of people that confuse anecdotes with data.

Yes, continuous welded rail does reduce the interface noise, but that is not the only consideration to it. For example, train wheels develop flat spots while sitting idle, they undergo periodic wheel-truing, but having only one wheel shop, it takes GO a long while currently to cycle through their whole fleet.

My statement about the potential difference between diesel and electric GO locomotives comes from direct knowledge of both the Engineering Performance Specifications for Electrification as well as the Noise and Vibration Studies that have occurred to date.

dowlingm said:
Even if the MP40s are fully re-engined and the new config is quieter there will still be some noisy traffic from CP and VIA on the midpart of the Georgetown works but it doesn't seem credible to me that the UPX traffic - which in movements terms could form the bulk of the traffic - will be anywhere near that obtrusive. The HEP generator alone on an MP40 is 1000hp, which is probably about the entire amount of power required for a 2 car DMU set. Opponents of these works like to present all movements as equal, as if every aircraft movement at Pearson from turboprop up should be counted as if it were a 747-400.
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The UPX has a greater quantity of trains, but they are substainially smaller. An empty GO train with one locomotive weighs 717 tonnes (an extra 146 tonnes of 165-lb people fully loaded). The UPX DMU specs allowed a max consist weight of 225 tonnes (plus 6-12 tonnes of people). This combined with the distributed propulsive force means that the UPX DMUs run much quieter.

The noise walls are also to allow for 30-minute two-way all-day GO service, meaning two UPX trains for every GO train.

junctionist said:
The bulk of the trains will probably be airport and GO trains in the corridor. CP trains don't even go south of West Toronto Diamond. Electrifying the regional passenger trains would make a huge difference. People seem fine with the occasional CP, VIA and GO train (the status quo); it's the planned expansion to all-day GO and airport trains that concerns them. GO uses powerful, loud diesels. The airport trains will be quieter, but more frequent.
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CN also runs one train south to WTD on the corridor, but the GO and UPX trains outnumber the third parties by an order of magnitude.

smallspy said:
Out of curiosity - when do you start complaining about the high-voltage wires and magnetic fields from the power lines necessary to run the electric trains? After they get installed, I assume?
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GO will be using a 2x25 kV ac system, which technically isn't "high-voltage", but the current EA will give specific information about the level of electromagnetic interference created (generally, it's less than holding a cell phone next to your head). If people don't like that, I'd suggest they go live in some backcountry forest.
 
Mapleson said:
I'm really tired of people that confuse anecdotes with data.

Yes, continuous welded rail does reduce the interface noise, but that is not the only consideration to it. For example, train wheels develop flat spots while sitting idle, they undergo periodic wheel-truing, but having only one wheel shop, it takes GO a long while currently to cycle through their whole fleet.

My statement about the potential difference between diesel and electric GO locomotives comes from direct knowledge of both the Engineering Performance Specifications for Electrification as well as the Noise and Vibration Studies that have occurred to date.
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Knowledge of data and specs is great, but have you ever actually stood in the neighbourhood within a few blocks of the tracks, or right next to the tracks, when a train is coming through? Can you honestly say that the sound of wheels on rail is even close to being the same as the sound of an engine pulling out of the station?

Let's meet up and watch trains at Bloor GO. I'll buy you a beer (or drink of choice) at a local pub after. Then let's see if you're still willing to say this:

Mapleson said:
I can categorically say the difference in sound levels between diesel and electric trains is negligible (less than 1 dB, imperceptible to human hearing). The largest part of train noise comes from interface impact loading (ie the clickity-clack as the wheels roll over the joints in the rails).
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The anecdotes are accurate observations. The engineers are just averaging the numbers to get the data. There are stretches of track in which the trains are always accelerating creating massive noise. The engineers average it out over the quieter parts of the trips for numbers that seem fine.
 
Mapleson said:
GO will be using a 2x25 kV ac system, which technically isn't "high-voltage", but the current EA will give specific information about the level of electromagnetic interference created (generally, it's less than holding a cell phone next to your head). If people don't like that, I'd suggest they go live in some backcountry forest.
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Oh, I'm well aware of the details. I'm simply pointing out that the groups along the line have always had moving "target" that the governments have needed to meet in order to appease them (and of course, of which they never will - their ultimate target is no trains at all). Complaining about the power lines is the next logical target for them, since they will be getting the electrified trains that they've most recently demanded.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
you are essentially correct. first it is noise, so they bury the corridor for a bit, and tell them they will put up sound barriers. then it is pollution, so they promise electrification by the end of the decade. Then it is the sound barriers, and that leaves Metrolinx flabbergasted. (WE WANT SOUND BARRIERS!! NO NOT THOSE SOUND BARRIERS! WE WANT THESE ONES THAT DON"T EVEN WORK!) I would not be surprised if they pull an anti-wind mill lobby and start making up health effects. (largely like they are doing with the island airport expansion)
 
Mapleson said:
Second, Metrolinx proposed a direct station connection between Dundas West TTC and Bloor GO Stations. The TTC said they didn't have the funds to do so, as part of the current rebuild of Bloor GO Station. When the Eglinton-Crosstown LRT is built, there will be a new GO station added to the line for both local and airport service.
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Sorry if I'm late to this, but I was under the impression the TTC-GO Conenction at Dundas West-Bloor was happening. I guess it's not in the (near) plans anymore?
 
smallspy said:
Oh, I'm well aware of the details. I'm simply pointing out that the groups along the line have always had moving "target" that the governments have needed to meet in order to appease them (and of course, of which they never will - their ultimate target is no trains at all). Complaining about the power lines is the next logical target for them, since they will be getting the electrified trains that they've most recently demanded.
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It's not the next logical step. They can't complain about something they advocated for. Most people have lived along the corridor for years. They're fine with the status quo, but not the large increase in train traffic. They've always been reasonable in their advocacy.
 
Well as I understand it, once the Georgetown is running at capacity with UPX, the route will become one of the busiest diesel corridors on the planet. That is a lot of pollution and noise and I wouldn't like it either. I have little sympathy for people who choose to live beside a rail corridor but bitch about the rails but this is a matter of degree.

This is akin to turning the Island Airport into another Pearson with jumbos and near 24 hour service and then telling the people of the Island that they are not allowed to use the airport. I think much of the bitching about the line is due to the fact that they do not trust Metrolinx to electrify the line and who could blame them but also that if someday they do they still use the corridor for transit.

If the people along the corridor were getting better transit out of this deal then you would get far fewer complaints.
 
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