Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited

[TOareaFan]

Well as I understand it, once the Georgetown is running at capacity with UPX, the route will become one of the busiest diesel corridors on the planet. That is a lot of pollution and noise and I wouldn't like it either. I have little sympathy for people who choose to live beside a rail corridor but bitch about the rails but this is a matter of degree.

In 2015 there will be no more than 29 GO Trains a day....add in 144 ARL trains few freight and a couple of VIA trains......is that the busiest diesel corridor on the planet?

This is akin to turning the Island Airport into another Pearson with jumbos and near 24 hour service and then telling the people of the Island that they are not allowed to use the airport. I think much of the bitching about the line is due to the fact that they do not trust Metrolinx to electrify the line and who could blame them but also that if someday they do they still use the corridor for transit.

Where does this distrust of Metrolinx come from in Weston? Afterall, MLS has met every demand they have made....even the stupid illogical demand of having the ARL stop at Weston.

 

[smallspy]

It's not the next logical step. They can't complain about something they advocated for. Most people have lived along the corridor for years. They're fine with the status quo, but not the large increase in train traffic. They've always been reasonable in their advocacy.

Horseshit.

It has always been a sliding scale. Having UPX trains stop at Weston. Burying the line through Weston. Keeping all of the cross-streets open. The sound walls. Priority electrification. All of these, and more, are a result of NIMBYs along the line complaining and complaining. And when each complaint has been met and dealt with, a new one arises.

And by "reasonable" you mean having people write, email and call everyone who writes either a remotely positive review of the future of the line or a slightly negative critique of the people doing the advocacy, than yeah, I guess that they are "reasonable".

Well as I understand it, once the Georgetown is running at capacity with UPX, the route will become one of the busiest diesel corridors on the planet. That is a lot of pollution and noise and I wouldn't like it either. I have little sympathy for people who choose to live beside a rail corridor but bitch about the rails but this is a matter of degree.

Where did you come up with that one? The only measure that it may be the busiest diesel corridor in Canada is by the number of train movements per day (and even then, I'm fairly certain that it won't be), and it most certainly isn't even going to be remotely close to the busiest by tonnage.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[drum118]

First of all, how many steam locomotives as well diesel used this corridor before new yards were built in the late 50-60's?

The crap that the Weston group has come up since 2005 is off the the wall and time to be told where to go. I have lived beside this corridor on Weston Rd and never had an issue with it since I chose to live there in the first place knowing it was there. Live with it or move. Been on too many committees along this corridor as well attend various meeting to say that you will never make everyone happy with changes to the corridor.

As for the barrier walls, they are safety walls to stop people crossing the tracks. There is a huge split within the communities regarding these walls with a small vocal group getting their way to have these walls built. There need to be more crossing along the route for pedestrians to cut down on the trespassing and to be underground.

As for miss trusting Metrolinx, again a small group and the same ones at the beginning of the ARL.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The 2nd deck bridge for Old Weston Rd crossing gets move this weekend.

You can watch from the west side of the corridor at Old Weston Rd in the fence area only.

Tracks will be remove starting at 4 am with excavation starting at 5am to 3pm Friday night.

The tunnel liners will start at 9am to 7pm

Bridge could start to move as early as 3pm to 6pm with schedule start as 6pm. Time schedule to move the bridge is from 6pm to 11pm but could start earlier based on the excavation.

Back filling will be taking place from 3pm to 7am along with the pouring of the floor slab from 7am to 10am.

Track will be install starting at 5pm Sat.

VIA will be using the Barrie Line this weekend as well.

 

[vegeta_skyline]

In 2015 there will be no more than 29 GO Trains a day....add in 144 ARL trains few freight and a couple of VIA trains......is that the busiest diesel corridor on the planet?

That's nothing but a blatant lie that they continue to propagate. It wouldn't even be the busiest rail corridor in the GTA today.

Since the move to half hour service, the section of track between Willowbrook at approx mile 7 of the Oakville sub and Union Station (mile 0) sees 142 GO movements per weekday.

as per GO's train movement document the "form 660";

eastward movements - 70 (actually 72 trains)
43 Revenue movements - 35 All stops trains and 8 Express trains
27 Equipment movements - 6 that leave Willowbrook in the morning(actually 8 trains, as two movements are double consist Richmond Hill trains), 19 that leave Willowbrook in the evening & 2 others that bypass Willowbrook in the evening rush

westward movements - 72
44 Revenue movements - 36 All stops trains and 8 Express trains
28 Equipment movements - 20 that return to Willowbrook in the morning, 5 that leave Willowbrook in the evening & 3 others that bypass Willowbrook in the morning rush

Then you add VIAs numbers;
13 Revenue movements (westward; #67,71,73,75,79,83,97 & Eastward; #70,72,76,78,83,98)
42 Equipment movements
This seem a lot but every single VIA train that originates or terminates at Union station returns back to the VIA TMC, located directly across from GO's Willowbrook yard. This compromises VIA train #41,43,44,45,46,48,50,51,52,53,54,56,57,59,60,61,64,65,66,84,85,86,87,644,650,651,657,656,659 and includes the equipment moves to Union of trains #67,71,73,75,79,83,97 and the equipment moves back to the TMC of trains #70,72,76,78,83,98. Some of those trips don't operate every day from Monday to Friday but the vast majority do and additionally there are a few other trains that operate for one or two weekdays i.e. VIA #1

In all its fair to say it averages out to about 55 total VIA movements per weekday.

On top of that there is the occasional freight(which now appear to be restricted to times outside of half hour service) and the occasional extra GO train or extra GO rescue train movement.

Essentially this corridor currently sees 200 movements every weekday. And while I don't have the data to back this up, I'd assume the total population catchment within 500m or 1000m of this corridor(7 miles of the Oavkille sub) is higher than the 13.5 miles that the UPE will travel on the Weston sub. So when was the last time any one seen a media report in regards to people along the Oakville sub complaining about the number of train movements?

Lastly when the UPE starts in 2015 there will be an additional 12 equipment UPE movements on this stretch of the Oakville sub. The Weston sub will not be topping 212 train movements anytime soon.

So that whole "busiest diesel corridor on the planet" thing is nothing but a house of cards argument.

 

[nfitz]

So that whole "busiest diesel corridor on the planet" thing is nothing but a house of cards argument.

LOL. I wonder what it is that makes someone like Mike Sullivan such a pathological liar.

I don't get the NDP. Why do they stoop to such depths, that they accept such a flawed candidate.

 

[drum118]

LOL. I wonder what it is that makes someone like Mike Sullivan such a pathological liar.

I don't get the NDP. Why do they stoop to such depths, that they accept such a flawed candidate.

Trying to win votes and using what the NDP can find that may win a seat for them.

Had my dealings with Mike over the years and he knows where I come from on this views.

Its like the hydro power line group.

The numbers don't added up for the Weston Group. Never heard any real complaints in mass regarding the Lakeshore line all the way out to Aldershot from Union.

 

[nfitz]

Never heard any real complaints in mass regarding the Lakeshore line all the way out to Aldershot from Union.

I live by the Lakeshore line and I've never heard any real complaints. They just doubled the number of smelly off-peak diesels ... and everyone I've talked to is thrilled!

 

[Mapleson]

Knowledge of data and specs is great, but have you ever actually stood in the neighbourhood within a few blocks of the tracks, or right next to the tracks, when a train is coming through? Can you honestly say that the sound of wheels on rail is even close to being the same as the sound of an engine pulling out of the station?

Let's meet up and watch trains at Bloor GO. I'll buy you a beer (or drink of choice) at a local pub after. Then let's see if you're still willing to say this:

Yes, I'm out on the tracks at least one day a week. I completely agree that at stations and the surrounding 1-2km, the locomotive acceleration noise dominates. My initial point (probably unclearly made) was that over the course of the corridor these areas are the exception, not the rule. However, even once we get electric GO trains, they will still pull the same carriage fleet until they are retired (assuming a gradual shift to EMU through future purchases). These will still be noisy for two main reasons: the combination of slightly quieter, but more trains meets our EA/TPAP approval guidelines; and, the trains will still be built to meet FRA impact standards for operating along with freight.

To have the most impact on noise levels we need to change the environmental standards or buy out the right for CN to run freight on the Weston subdivision (building a crash wall along the MacTier sub).

The anecdotes are accurate observations. The engineers are just averaging the numbers to get the data. There are stretches of track in which the trains are always accelerating creating massive noise. The engineers average it out over the quieter parts of the trips for numbers that seem fine.

Actually, no, you have completely the wrong end of the stick. Noise monitoring for baseline conditions and modelling for future impact occurs at discrete sensitive locations, and any one location that has unacceptable changed must provide mitigation measures.

Sorry if I'm late to this, but I was under the impression the TTC-GO Conenction at Dundas West-Bloor was happening. I guess it's not in the (near) plans anymore?

It won't be built for the PanAm Games in 2015, so there'll be another round of construction in the area. The GO station is being built, such that there are knock-out panels when the TTC gets into gear. It is still going to happen, but on the TTC's timeline and budget.

It's not the next logical step. They can't complain about something they advocated for. Most people have lived along the corridor for years. They're fine with the status quo, but not the large increase in train traffic. They've always been reasonable in their advocacy.

Why is rail traffic so exceptional? Do people along the 401/427/Gardiner complain as much about the ever increasing volumes of car traffic? It's the reality of a city/country/world with a growing population that traffic will increase. Rail traffic is only exceptional as the increases come is blocks rather than more gradual growth.

I think much of the bitching about the line is due to the fact that they do not trust Metrolinx to electrify the line and who could blame them but also that if someday they do they still use the corridor for transit.

If the people along the corridor were getting better transit out of this deal then you would get far fewer complaints.

Metrolinx is serious about electrification, but it really comes down to the particular government in power at the time. I'm not sure the Tories will have much cash to keep the ball rolling. Even the Liberals have only found enough money to get the details nailed down. As an aside, I've heard talk at Metrolinx about the possibility of developing a hydrogen fuel cell locomotive as a possible alternative.

People seem to be forgetting that by the time the corridor is at capacity, all the trains will be using Tier 4 locomotives, meaning 3 new trains = 1 old train of polution. If fact, their neighbourhoods probably receive more air pollution from their own cars than the rail corridor (baseline conditions don't isolate sources, but I'd say this statement has a 50-50% chance of being true). The noise difference is about a hair dryer compared to a washing machine. Either complain about the noise or complain about the noise walls, but not both!

As for better transit, Metrolinx does have plans for an eventually Eglinton/Mount Dennis Station (GO and UPX) and are even considering the King/Liberty Village proposed station, so long as it's built outside the corridor.

 

[ssiguy2]

I don't know anything about hydrogen so i'll leave that up to someone else. As for electrification, well Metrolinx is serious about a lot of things but that doesn't mean they get done. If Metrolinx were to put it in writing that it would be done by, for example, 2018 then some of the bitching may subside.

As far as transit, UPX doesn't do 99% of the population squat and who in hell would pay that kind of fare from Weston to go to Union or Pearson? Anyone who will pay $25 to get downtown from Weston needs therapy. As far as GO is concerned that not a whole lot better. The reason people don't take it now has far less to do with service levels and everything to do with the outrageous cost and complete lack of fare integration.

If GO was to have 5 minute service 24/7 on all the GO lines it wouldn't make much difference to the average transit user in the city.........people don't have the money to take GO. This is why the increase in GO service and the UPX are exciting to Metrolinx and GO will help the 905 but Torontonians don't share the enthusiasm. It also shows why all the new announcements and grand plans {which seem to come out or changed every week} and met with scepticism at best as even if they come to fruition before those same commuters retire it will mean little to their daily lives. Tons of money spent on a Sheppard extension to save 3 minutes on their daily commute and only the creator knows when it will open.

Torontonians need mass and rapid transit TODAY and the thing that pisses people off is that they already have it up and running, they just can't afford to take it. If Torontonians were asked tomorrow to take, for example, a 3 cent a litre increase in their gas prices and have the funds go to GO so that they could use their TTC pass on any GO service in the city then people would jump at the chance and it wouldn't need environmental reviews, endless consultation, and years of construction but just a signature on a piece of paper.

Toronto has an extensive rapid transit system, all they want is the opportunity to use it.

 

[innsertnamehere]

.... we still don't know the price, and I HIGHLY doubt it will be the same to go to Weston as it will be to go to Union. Every other GO line uses standard fares, why not Toronto?

also, a monthly GO pass from anywhere in Toronto to anywhere in Toronto is $162.60, $33.70 more than a TTC pass, and for that extra money you get a much, much higher chance of getting a seat, faster service to Downtown, and a much, much more comfortable and enjoyable ride. $22.20 more for a student pass.

 

[Platform 27]

If GO was to have 5 minute service 24/7 on all the GO lines it wouldn't make much difference to the average transit user in the city.........people don't have the money to take GO.

 

[LNahid2000]

also, a monthly GO pass from anywhere in Toronto to anywhere in Toronto is $162.60, $33.70 more than a TTC pass, and for that extra money you get a much, much higher chance of getting a seat, faster service to Downtown, and a much, much more comfortable and enjoyable ride. $22.20 more for a student pass.

The problem is that GO doesn't go everywhere in Toronto, and if you want to ride the TTC to go somewhere, you have to pay a second time.

 

[ssiguy2]

Exactly.

If there was a slight extra fare ie a GO/TTC for $162 which would be good on any GO or TTC service within the City, ridership on GO thru the city itself would soar and people commutes would be far more comfortable, fast, and reliable.

 

[rbt]

The problem is that GO doesn't go everywhere in Toronto, and if you want to ride the TTC to go somewhere, you have to pay a second time.

This would be more believable if both GO and TTC weren't having severe difficulties keeping up with demand.

I don't think price is pushing away ridership on either system. The inability for customers to get on the bus/train certainly is.

I would guess that a 15% increase in service combined with a 25% boost in price would result in increased ridership.


GO could do something to encourage a reverse commute (downtown to suburbs in the morning, reverse in the evening) but that would be politically difficult.

Downsview station (the new one, not the existing) is going to be a very interesting station to watch as it is the first to have decent physical integration between GO and TTC which isn't at the destination. Union is too close to the end of the trip to be a useful gauge in transfers.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Kennedy Is a very easy transfer between the two and very few people use it.