Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[Rainforest]

It is, but the line shouldn't be just about providing relief to Yonge, but to serve as an eventual network of stations for the core area. Cutting back on the number of stations is detrimental to that goal.

AoD

Of what use to most of us is a cheaper DRL if it does not connect to major cross intersections and destinations downtown? The DRL may very well the last major subway expansion the City/region ever undertakes. We cannot afford to be stingy with it.

Central Bloor-Danforth/downtown YUS levels of stop spacing is more than reasonable for the stretch from Queen-Carlaw to Queen-Roncesvalles. The spacing officially planned for the DRL largely reflects this; except for the omission of a stop at Parliament St. (and thus shifting the "Sherbourne" stop further west to close the gap between it and Yonge).

If this is the official plan: http://reliefline.ca/news/current-work-fall-2016?p=1

, then there will be only 1 intermediate station (Sherbourne) on the 3.5 km stretch of Queen between Yonge and Pape. Arguably, Sumach will be close enough to Queen to serve the adjacent buildings. Still, 2 intermediate stops is not enough for serving a 3.5 km stretch without any local service.

If the streetcars were removed, they would have to be replaced with buses.

I certainly understand that the Relief line should not merely be a shuttle to downtown, it should provide service to the areas it passes through. I am not suggesting a removal of any of the planned stops.

But the planned stop spacing is already anything but local, and in addition, the line diverts from Queen St. In order to completely substitute the streetcar service with subway stops, we would have to basically double the number of stops, as well as re-route the line to stay on Queen until it reaches Pape. Something tells me that this is not going to happen.

If so, then retaining the streetcars on rails that are already in place seems to be a more reasonable option than switching to buses on the central section of Queen and fragmenting the service.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

In the case of Queen Street, when the relief line opens ridership on the corridor will rise dramatically as it does with every new subway line. But ridership on the streetcar, assuming it's rebuilt and keeps operating, will plummet because most people will take the subway.

Don't forget the relief line will only be downtown it won't help anyone that is outside of those areas that uses the queen car. The queen car will function just as it does now and bring in poel from both ends that can't get to a subway otherwise.

 

[Kitsune]

The 501 would still needed be needed - but as I mentioned previously once the line is extended to Ronsvilles (or however its spelt I'm not polish lol) you could route it along King and take the place of the 504 with a Broadview streetcar servicing the East side and idk on the West Side. The distance between Sherbourne and Yonge is 800m - so with station spacing will likely be less. The distance from Sherbourne to Sumach is about 1km via streets - about 700 meters for the subway. The street distance is similiar to Bay to St George, although maybe a new branch of the 65 or 75 could be worked to service Queen and loop at the Sumach station.

 

[Hopkins123]

The 501 would still needed be needed - but as I mentioned previously once the line is extended to Ronsvilles (or however its spelt I'm not polish lol) you could route it along King and take the place of the 504 with a Broadview streetcar servicing the East side and idk on the West Side. The distance between Sherbourne and Yonge is 800m - so with station spacing will likely be less. The distance from Sherbourne to Sumach is about 1km via streets - about 700 meters for the subway. The street distance is similiar to Bay to St George, although maybe a new branch of the 65 or 75 could be worked to service Queen and loop at the Sumach station.

It's so foolish of whoever has been planning the Relief Line not to consider how transfers will be be made to/from the 65 Parliament bus, not to mention the recent boom of development around Dundas and Parliament (easy walking distance of Queen) plus the Distillery District to the south and commuters from Cabbagetown to the not-too-distant north; all uniquely suited to be best served from a new DRL station at Queen and Parliament.

It'd probably only be $100 million to include a stop there. The planners really need to get back to the drawing board and not ruin things for so many constituents.

Likewise a station at Jarvis Street is better for institutional connections, a shorter walk to George Brown College and Ryerson University, even a back-exit to St Micheal's Hospital (extended PATH network). It's also a direct walk south to St Lawrence Market and environs.

If these stations were being planned with local communities needs in mind, not just long distance commuters, we'd have the DRL everybody deserves. And there'd be zero need for a parallel streetcar service between Roncesvalles and River along Queen. Just resuscitate the 508 Lakeshore along King, and the core would be fine.

 

[Kitsune]

It's so foolish of whoever has been planning the Relief Line not to consider how transfers will be be made to/from the 65 Parliament bus, not to mention the recent boom of development around Dundas and Parliament (easy walking distance of Queen) plus the Distillery District to the south and commuters from Cabbagetown to the not-too-distant north; all uniquely suited to be best served from a new DRL station at Queen and Parliament.

It'd probably only be $100 million to include a stop there. The planners really need to get back to the drawing board and not ruin things for so many constituents.

Likewise a station at Jarvis Street is better for institutional connections, a shorter walk to George Brown College and Ryerson University, even a back-exit to St Micheal's Hospital (extended PATH network). It's also a direct walk south to St Lawrence Market and environs.

If these stations were being planned with local communities needs in mind, not just long distance commuters, we'd have the DRL everybody deserves. And there'd be zero need for a parallel streetcar service between Roncesvalles and River along Queen. Just resuscitate the 508 Lakeshore along King, and the core would be fine.

The Sherbourne station box will be 300 meters from Jarvis and 200m from parliament with entrances located at the end of the box. It'll be roughly 700 meters (although that distance could shrink some in detailed engineering) between Yonge and Sherbourne. It's a similiar distance on Line 2 and that has not hampered anything. So far every station is 700 meters apart except the Osgoode and Yonge stations (which is 200 meters apart), and it continues to work all the way down to Roncasvilles.

 

[Palma]

Cities grow and change all the time. Keeping something around for the sake of keeping it around can have value, sometimes. But in general, I think the function of the transit system as a transit system is far more important. The city will adapt.

I'm not sure a subway with a streetcar immediately about it will justify the cost and capacity the streetcar requires/provides. Its true that a streetcar on Yonge might be nice during the subway closures, I'd hardly say four days a month justifies the cost. Plus if the DRL and Crosstown were in place, the shuttle busses probably wouldn't get so utterly flooded with people.

Also, lets me honest: Streetcars are pretty terrible. They're slow, disrupt traffic and let people off in the middle of the street. Frankly, good riddance.

streetcars that carry hundreds disrupt traffic yet cars that usually have only one passenger don't disrupt the streetcars carrying hundreds of people! Right. I must be the one mssing something

 

[MisterF]

Don't forget the relief line will only be downtown it won't help anyone that is outside of those areas that uses the queen car. The queen car will function just as it does now and bring in poel from both ends that can't get to a subway otherwise.

Most passengers on the Queen car coming from the east will transfer into the subway at Pape. They won't stay on the streetcar when they can take a faster line that goes to the same place. The more the subway gets extended west, the more streetcar riders will switch to the subway. The streetcar will be a feeder into the subway and little more.

 

[Rainforest]

Most passengers on the Queen car coming from the east will transfer into the subway at Pape. They won't stay on the streetcar when they can take a faster line that goes to the same place. The more the subway gets extended west, the more streetcar riders will switch to the subway. The streetcar will be a feeder into the subway and little more.

It depends on where exactly they are going, as well as time of the day (how crowded the streetcar is, and how congested the roads are).

Many will transfer, especially at Queen & Broadview. But, quite a few will stay on the streetcar. The streetcar has more stops that may be closer to the person's destination, and it does not divert from Queen.

It is possible, and makes sense, to run streetcars at a greater frequency east of Broadview than west of Broadview. While building the Relief line, we need to think about the streetcar loop configuration that allows such arrangement. The Kingston Road streetcar can be completely turned into a feeder terminating at Broadview, and the Beaches streetcar service can consist of the main all-day branch that runs through, and a rush-hour branch that ends at Broadview.

The western service configuration will depend on the Relief Line's route that is far from having been finalized, but the same idea should apply. More service west of the subway connection, less service east of it, but one route that goes through is retained.

There should be enough streetcar riders on the central section of Queen to warrant retention of the service.

 

[aquateam]

It depends on where exactly they are going, as well as time of the day (how crowded the streetcar is, and how congested the roads are).

Many will transfer, especially at Queen & Broadview. But, quite a few will stay on the streetcar. The streetcar has more stops that may be closer to the person's destination, and it does not divert from Queen.

It is possible, and makes sense, to run streetcars at a greater frequency east of Broadview than west of Broadview. While building the Relief line, we need to think about the streetcar loop configuration that allows such arrangement. The Kingston Road streetcar can be completely turned into a feeder terminating at Broadview, and the Beaches streetcar service can consist of the main all-day branch that runs through, and a rush-hour branch that ends at Broadview.

The western service configuration will depend on the Relief Line's route that is far from having been finalized, but the same idea should apply. More service west of the subway connection, less service east of it, but one route that goes through is retained.

There should be enough streetcar riders on the central section of Queen to warrant retention of the service.

Wouldn't it make more sense to re-route the streetcars south to King and that fancy new transit mall when they go west of Don Valley rather than run them right on top of the subway through downtown? I.e. the 501 would intersect the DRL twice, once at Queen/Pape, and again at King/Sumach.

You'd get to maintain a one-seat ride to downtown, but you'd avoid the service duplication.

I'm not sure why you have the streetcars turning back at Queen/Broadview since the current preferred alignment doesn't intersect there.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

Wouldn't it make more sense to re-route the streetcars south to King and that fancy new transit mall when they go west of Don Valley rather than run them right on top of the subway through downtown? I.e. the 501 would intersect the DRL twice, once at Queen/Pape, and again at King/Sumach.

You'd get to maintain a one-seat ride to downtown, but you'd avoid the service duplication.

I'm not sure why you have the streetcars turning back at Queen/Broadview since the current preferred alignment doesn't intersect there.

This made the most sense to me, I always figured it was a given once they opened up the western extension at least. Run the 501 from Long Branch to Roncy, then take King between Roncy and the Don, then resume the 501 to Neville Park. It's just like a big diversion.

 

[W. K. Lis]

This made the most sense to me, I always figured it was a given once they opened up the western extension at least. Run the 501 from Long Branch to Roncy, then take King between Roncy and the Don, then resume the 501 to Neville Park. It's just like a big diversion.

The 503 KINGSTON ROAD already does so. It'll stay.

The 301 QUEEN will also could stay, when the DRL is closed.

They could put the 508 LAKESHORE back into service, as well. (It's under suspension at the moment.)

 

[MisterF]

It depends on where exactly they are going, as well as time of the day (how crowded the streetcar is, and how congested the roads are).

Many will transfer, especially at Queen & Broadview. But, quite a few will stay on the streetcar. The streetcar has more stops that may be closer to the person's destination, and it does not divert from Queen.

It is possible, and makes sense, to run streetcars at a greater frequency east of Broadview than west of Broadview. While building the Relief line, we need to think about the streetcar loop configuration that allows such arrangement. The Kingston Road streetcar can be completely turned into a feeder terminating at Broadview, and the Beaches streetcar service can consist of the main all-day branch that runs through, and a rush-hour branch that ends at Broadview.

The western service configuration will depend on the Relief Line's route that is far from having been finalized, but the same idea should apply. More service west of the subway connection, less service east of it, but one route that goes through is retained.

There should be enough streetcar riders on the central section of Queen to warrant retention of the service.

With 5 stations between Leslieville and Yonge (including Queen-Pape and Queen-Yonge), everywhere along Queen will be within walking distance of a subway station. The subway will be the faster option for anyone going farther than a couple stations, even with the diversion off Queen. The vast majority will transfer at Pape (or Broadview if they're transferring onto RER trains), especially as the line gets extended west.

 

[ssiguy2]

Still think the DRL should be built as RER. Toronto must have some RER downtown alternative to Union. Build it exactly as & where a DRL line would go between roughly LV and Eglinton but use catenary subways so they can take advantage of the railways north to RH and west to Burlington.

Metrolinx should be working with an assumption of RER carrying AT LEAST the number of passengers per day that all the subways currently do and Union simply won't be able to handle that many passengers or trains.

 

[Rainforest]

With 5 stations between Leslieville and Yonge (including Queen-Pape and Queen-Yonge), everywhere along Queen will be within walking distance of a subway station. The subway will be the faster option for anyone going farther than a couple stations, even with the diversion off Queen. The vast majority will transfer at Pape (or Broadview if they're transferring onto RER trains), especially as the line gets extended west.

Even if all stations were on Queen, there would be about 800 or 900 m gaps between the stations; that's walkable for most of people, but is not optimal for a busy corridor like Queen.

Furthermore, the Broadview station is rather far from Queen.

 

[Rainforest]

Wouldn't it make more sense to re-route the streetcars south to King and that fancy new transit mall when they go west of Don Valley rather than run them right on top of the subway through downtown? I.e. the 501 would intersect the DRL twice, once at Queen/Pape, and again at King/Sumach.

You'd get to maintain a one-seat ride to downtown, but you'd avoid the service duplication.

That's possible of course, I just don't see how that option is better.

Say, Option A is to keep 501 Beaches route on Queen, and 504 Broadview on King.

Option B is to send 501 down King and run local bus service on the central section of Queen. Then, 504 Broadview still has to connect to subway. Presumably it will either share the King tracks with 501 if there is room for that, or it can go to Cherry St loop; in both cases it will connect to the Sumach subway station.

Overall, I do not see how Option B results in faster service, or requires less drivers. It is likely to require slightly more drivers than Option A.

I'm not sure why you have the streetcars turning back at Queen/Broadview since the current preferred alignment doesn't intersect there.

You are right, Queen / Pape, not Broadview. That does not change the concept though.