Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[MisterF]

One thing I do worry about happening with the DRL under Queen is that people start pushing for removal of the streetcars and ancient telephone/hydro posts. I'd hate to see a sanitized Queen. Keep the streetcars in situ. Just eventually make a nice right of way for them. Queen is my favourite Toronto street hands down. King is impressive, but it's a business street, always has been, right back to the textile warehouses, Upper Canada College, and the old parliament. Queen, old Lot Street., still has that grit and edge that I love. The city needs to prevent excessive gentrification. The potential loss of the live/work hard loft warehouses to out-sized luxury condos is the biggest threat to that corridor.

Only in Toronto do people equate streetscape improvements with sanitization and gentrification. You'd be laughed out of town if you suggested that anywhere in Western Europe. Or Montreal.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

For the time being, planning staff say they fully intend to maintain 501 Queen operations after phase 1 of the Relief Line is complete. However, once the full Relief Line is complete, I figure the 501 Queen will have seen its last days. Perhaps some of that route could be maintained as a historical route.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Only in Toronto do people equate streetscape improvements with sanitization and gentrification. You'd be laughed out of town if you suggested that anywhere in Western Europe. Or Montreal.

It's in the same vein that people might prefer seedy strip clubs or bars, rather than sterile chain coffee shops in certain areas of the city, even if they're not purveyors of such establishments. The grittiness adds character, I suppose. It's not an opinion I share, but I understand why some might fear that Queen could lose its gritty character.

 

[Euphoria]

I don't care if it lives on as old-worldy kitch like the San Fran cable car. There's something about that careening streetcar between the 19th century streetscapes. Widen the boulevards, build a ROW, add greenery and public art, but don't rip out the streetcar lines. We lose those and we lose an important part of the character of the city.

By retain the character, I'm not talking about strip clubs and seedy places at all. I do mean retain the architecture and fringe arts elements. More bistros, cafes, galleries, design shops. Don't allow the streetscape to be given over to faceless mass-scale condo projects that only the rich can afford. Basically, TO needs to retain its closest thing to the East Village, Greenwich, SoHo, and Tribeca.

 

[Hopkins123]

For the time being, planning staff say they fully intend to maintain 501 Queen operations after phase 1 of the Relief Line is complete. However, once the full Relief Line is complete, I figure the 501 Queen will have seen its last days. Perhaps some of that route could be maintained as a historical route.

This is why it is critical that BD levels of stop spacing is proposed for the DRL. That means a station at Queen and Parliament Streets ought to be included.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

There is an entire subforum of construction pictures from the last 10 years where you can see the holes they've been digging for the projects between Front and King. Head over and have a look. Second point isn't the whole reason why you can't bring it closer to grade is because of the TBM they're going to be using? Ask city staff why they're adamant on running it through bedrock to keep a level plane.-

That isn't an answer to the question - is it, or is it not that the bedrock is deeper along King than Queen alignment? Second is an engineering choice - not an alignment one.

Nothing ironic about it. Ramming the line down Queen East side to encourage WAM style urban renewal would only lead to bad results for the poor. If we were to weight socioeconomics putting transit closest to the jobs arguably rates higher. On the other point there wasn't going to be a station under the St. Lawrence No Frills and now any station is going to be a 700m walk away from the nearest exit. On the other hand say hello to the wrecking ball if the NIMBY's get their way.

By the way a timely report on this very important issue perhaps this No Frills will be the next chapter?

(What happens if those people in the houses next to this proposed station start complaining? What about their feelings? Cage match against Pape NIMBY's?)

Funny you should drag out that article - perhaps you should have a look at whether alternatives are available at each of those sites mentioned and compare it to the context of the particular No Frills at Gerrard/Carlaw - because there is Food Basics in Gerrard Square. Besides, are we going to go down the road of choosing alignment because it will or will not knock down a supermarket?

I don't give a damn about feelings - building anything will involve offending someone somewhere.

AoD

 

[MisterF]

It's in the same vein that people might prefer seedy strip clubs or bars, rather than sterile chain coffee shops in certain areas of the city, even if they're not purveyors of such establishments. The grittiness adds character, I suppose. It's not an opinion I share, but I understand why some might fear that Queen could lose its gritty character.

That analogy might ring true if cities and neighbourhoods with no overhead wires were sterile and lacked character. This is obviously not the case. Unless of course you think that Montreal, New York, and virtually all of western Europe are sterile and lack character compared to Toronto. Or that adding overhead wires on poles would add character to these places. Both ideas seem insane to me.

I don't care if it lives on as old-worldy kitch like the San Fran cable car. There's something about that careening streetcar between the 19th century streetscapes. Widen the boulevards, build a ROW, add greenery and public art, but don't rip out the streetcar lines. We lose those and we lose an important part of the character of the city.

By retain the character, I'm not talking about strip clubs and seedy places at all. I do mean retain the architecture and fringe arts elements. More bistros, cafes, galleries, design shops. Don't allow the streetscape to be given over to faceless mass-scale condo projects that only the rich can afford. Basically, TO needs to retain its closest thing to the East Village, Greenwich, SoHo, and Tribeca.

All of these neighbourhoods have no overhead wires that I've ever seen, no streetcars, and can be accessed by multiple subway lines. So by your own logic, these things have little to nothing to do with the kind of development you don't want to see.

Even in Toronto, plenty of areas on the subway haven't seen much development and and plenty of areas far from the subway have had loads of infill. And new condos in established neighbourhoods tend to be designed better than in new neighbourhoods like Cityplace. And they tend to cater to the middle class more than the rich.

Edit to add: even if streetcars are eventually removed from the central part of Queen Street, we'd still have streetcars on other routes. Streetcars have rightfully become a symbol of Toronto and I can't see any way that the whole system would be removed. They survived Rob Ford after all. But protecting streetcars can't come at the expense of building the infrastructure that's desperately needed like the DRL. As the examples in New York that you posted show, streets like Queen will be fine with a subway, whether streetcars are kept or not.

 

[muller877]

Only in Toronto do people equate streetscape improvements with sanitization and gentrification. You'd be laughed out of town if you suggested that anywhere in Western Europe. Or Montreal.

Maybe you should check the Montreal papers. There are violent vandals who protest gentrification in their neighbourhoods. In Nov they smashed windows and trashed hipster stores. They also "protest" stores (coffee shops) and basically block any patrons from entering.

 

[crs1026]

I don't care if it lives on as old-worldy kitch like the San Fran cable car. There's something about that careening streetcar between the 19th century streetscapes. Widen the boulevards, build a ROW, add greenery and public art, but don't rip out the streetcar lines. We lose those and we lose an important part of the character of the city.

By retain the character, I'm not talking about strip clubs and seedy places at all. I do mean retain the architecture and fringe arts elements. More bistros, cafes, galleries, design shops. Don't allow the streetscape to be given over to faceless mass-scale condo projects that only the rich can afford. Basically, TO needs to retain its closest thing to the East Village, Greenwich, SoHo, and Tribeca.

This is a matter of urban planning and development controls more than on/off streetcars. Nobody would claim that Danforth is a 'sterile' street, although I don't like it as much as Queen or College in part because the traffic is more aggressive, and the lack of streetcars is an element in that.

Queen West is going through a heritage review. That, rather than the streetcar, is what will make the difference to its character as this is the vehicle whereby the traditional streetscape will be kept whole.. Toronto needs more emphasis on Heritage Conservation Districts - this is a provision of the Heritage Act whereby a notable district's essence is preserved in whole rather than tackling preservation one building at a time. Development can still happen but there is much more control. Naturally, developers hate HCD and oppose them bitterly, and in this city our developer-subservient Council is happy to turn down proposals for HCD's (at least until recently, anyways).

Queen West's 'edginess' is moving anyways, as rents go up. The traditional dives that are still there, are renovating and going upscale. Happily, the hipsters who made them famous are upwardly mobile and can still afford them. The next decade's hipsters will find new places for cheap entertainment. Queen will still be popular.

An open window ride on the Queen streetcar on a warm summer evening is about the best experience Toronto has to offer, and I hope we preserve that. However, that digresses from 'transit' which will have to be faster and smoother and climate controlled. Hopefully we keep both.

- Paul

 

[Euphoria]

I actually think the streetcar plays an important role in the urban fabric apart from its utility as transit. They add variety and, like on-street parking, can reduce the violence of the roadway in terms of auto traffic. Such streets, with the right improvements to boulevards and medians, can have more vitality than pedestrian-only zones. Sparks Street in Ottawa can feel a bit sterile, nice as it is. The streetcar itself can be a thing of beauty. Think of the King car by St. Lawrence Hall on a snowy day. I also agree we need the DRL in roughly the Queen alignment.

 

[MisterF]

Maybe you should check the Montreal papers. There are violent vandals who protest gentrification in their neighbourhoods. In Nov they smashed windows and trashed hipster stores. They also "protest" stores (coffee shops) and basically block any patrons from entering.

My point was that overhead wires and the existence of subway lines have nothing to do with sterility or character, and that cities like Montreal show that a street can be just as vibrant with a cleaned up streetscape. I'm not sure how your post relates to my point. Are you suggesting that people are vandalizing stores because there are no hydro wires?

I actually think the streetcar plays an important role in the urban fabric apart from its utility as transit. They add variety and, like on-street parking, can reduce the violence of the roadway in terms of auto traffic. Such streets, with the right improvements to boulevards and medians, can have more vitality than pedestrian-only zones. Sparks Street in Ottawa can feel a bit sterile, nice as it is. The streetcar itself can be a thing of beauty. Think of the King car by St. Lawrence Hall on a snowy day. I also agree we need the DRL in roughly the Queen alignment.

Road traffic can be calmed with or without streetcars. The standard 4 lane street in Toronto is a recipe for aggressive driving, but a narrower roadway can go a long way to calming things down. As crs1026 posted, the Danforth can have more aggressive drivers but part of that is that it's a wider street with more space dedicated to vehicle traffic. A hypothetical Queen Street with a subway underneath and no streetcars wouldn't need to have 4 lanes; it could be reduced to one lane in each direction with wider sidewalks. People tend to drive less aggressively on streets like that. As for Sparks Street, its sterility isn't because of the lack of streetcars. The alternative to streetcars isn't necessarily a pedestrian-only street.

The alternative to streetcars and overhead wires isn't sterility. It's the Plateau and Greenwich Village and Brixton.

 

[Euphoria]

Nevertheless, keep the streetcars, and not just for aesthetics. I'm sure at some point we'll value having a streetcar ROW and a subway beneath it to move people. Think of New York's multiple lines in the same alignments. Let's save money and a part of Toronto's character.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Nevertheless, keep the streetcars, and not just for aesthetics. I'm sure at some point we'll value having a streetcar ROW and a subway beneath it to move people. Think of New York's multiple lines in the same alignments. Let's save money and a part of Toronto's character.

If they had kept the streetcar tracks and along Yonge Street, Bloor Street, and Danforth Avenue, they could have been using the ALRV's as shuttles during subway downtimes. Especially when they can carry double the crowds of people as buses, along with stops only at or near the stations, and cops at each traffic light intersection.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

For the time being, planning staff say they fully intend to maintain 501 Queen operations after phase 1 of the Relief Line is complete. However, once the full Relief Line is complete, I figure the 501 Queen will have seen its last days. Perhaps some of that route could be maintained as a historical route.

Keep the 501, no reason not to.

 

[crs1026]

The reasons not to are a) cost of maintaining the infrastructure and b) cyclists and motorists will expect removal of the tracks as one 'benefit' of their share of the taxes invested in the DRL.

It has been so long since TTC cancelled a streetcar - the last was what, St Clair east of Yonge? Was there a ridership threshold involved or were these strictly targets of opportunity?

Don't forget - when construction starts, streetcar tracks will get ripped out in places for construction, and service will have to change to bus. After 3-5 years without, people may not push very hard to have them restored. The equipment may be needed on other routes. There will be lots of inertia to overcome, let alone cost, to put everything back.

- Paul