Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[W. K. Lis]

...
It has been so long since TTC cancelled a streetcar - the last was what, St Clair east of Yonge? Was there a ridership threshold involved or were these strictly targets of opportunity?...

- Paul

From link and link:

The St. Clair streetcar east of Yonge was replaced by the 76 Mt. Pleasant bus in 1976.

Steve: There were two factors that really hurt the route. First, before the bridge at the Belt Line closed for reconstruction, there was a strong north-south demand pattern both with students coming north to the schools at Davisville and at Eglinton, and riders going south and west to St. Clair Station. Second, service on the streetcar was frequent and competitive with the east-west bus route.

After the street reopened, the transit service was much worse than what had been before. The buses (trolley and diesel) could not make the streetcar running times (!) and the TTC in its usual way responded simply by stretching the headway. What had once been a frequent service dropped off and even reached a point where evening and Sunday service was killed in the Ford round of cuts. The line has never recovered.

It is a cautionary tale for planners who close routes for construction and then wonder where all of the riders have gone.

When streetcars get replaced by buses, there is usually (if there are no changes to the route) a decrease in ridership. Instead of around 4 streetcars running on Mt. Pleasant, there is 1 bus (non-rush hours).

 

[Avenue]

With all due respect, attributing an event that occurred over 30 years to a single cause with a ceteris parabus assumption isn't very scientific.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

From link and link:

The St. Clair streetcar east of Yonge was replaced by the 76 Mt. Pleasant bus in 1976.



View attachment 98405

When streetcars get replaced by buses, there is usually (if there are no changes to the route) a decrease in ridership. Instead of around 4 streetcars running on Mt. Pleasant, there is 1 bus (non-rush hours).

From transit Toronto:

"public notices appeared along the line announcing that [Mount Pleasant Streetcar] service would end at the end of July. The TTC was forced to reverse its decision through the direct intervention of the Metro Roads Department, in response to complaints from car drivers about streetcars ‘obstructing’ their progress. This reversal was made without any community consultation, and it was a sad comment that drivers from outside the community could effectively override the desires of people living within that community."

http://transit.toronto.on.ca/streetcar/4114.shtml

 

[Tuck]

Cities grow and change all the time. Keeping something around for the sake of keeping it around can have value, sometimes. But in general, I think the function of the transit system as a transit system is far more important. The city will adapt.

I'm not sure a subway with a streetcar immediately about it will justify the cost and capacity the streetcar requires/provides. Its true that a streetcar on Yonge might be nice during the subway closures, I'd hardly say four days a month justifies the cost. Plus if the DRL and Crosstown were in place, the shuttle busses probably wouldn't get so utterly flooded with people.

Also, lets me honest: Streetcars are pretty terrible. They're slow, disrupt traffic and let people off in the middle of the street. Frankly, good riddance.

 

[jje1000]

That's not honest- streetcars are not intrinsically terrible or else they would have disappeared completely around the world.

What matters is the implementation and the way the city is integrated around them (light timing, ROWs).

I say we should keep the Queen St line for at least 10 years after the DRL opens as a local line, and then figure out what to do. Plus, the duplication of service is incredibly useful in a city like Toronto starved of parallel transit lines.

 

[Hopkins123]

That's not honest- streetcars are not intrinsically terrible or else they would have disappeared completely around the world.

What matters is the implementation and the way the city is integrated around them (light timing, ROWs).

I say we should keep the Queen St line for at least 10 years after the DRL opens as a local line, and then figure out what to do. Plus, the duplication of service is incredibly useful in a city like Toronto starved of parallel transit lines.

The answer to not to run two separate services along Queen St. The answer is to ensure Bloor-Danforth or downtown YUS levels of stop spacing on the DRL, such that a streetcar from Roncesvalles to River St is simply not needed. Stops every 600 metres will eliminate the need for a streetcar on this corridor through the core.

Ideally, Roncesvalles Station will serve as a mega hub in the west end for King, Lakeshore and maybe even a Queensway streetcar service where everyone will transfer onto the DRL to head further east and likewise the Sumach (West Don Lands) Station will serve a similar function for the Broadview, Beaches and Kingston Rd bound streetcars.

 

[MisterF]

When streetcars get replaced by buses, there is usually (if there are no changes to the route) a decrease in ridership. Instead of around 4 streetcars running on Mt. Pleasant, there is 1 bus (non-rush hours).

In the case of Queen Street, when the relief line opens ridership on the corridor will rise dramatically as it does with every new subway line. But ridership on the streetcar, assuming it's rebuilt and keeps operating, will plummet because most people will take the subway.

Also, lets me honest: Streetcars are pretty terrible. They're slow, disrupt traffic and let people off in the middle of the street. Frankly, good riddance.

Streetcars aren't inherently slower than any other form of transit. They can theoretically be just as fast as a subway, and in the case of the underground portion of the Eglinton line they probably will be. They're slow on Queen because a) they get stuck at red lights and behind cars and b) because they simply can't handle the crowds.

 

[Euphoria]

Agreed. Streetcars in ROWs along King, Queen, and College, combined with the DRL and ST, not to mention the LRT extensions along and down to the lake, would provide a pretty complete transit network in the core. I'd also like to see an additional intermodal station under the west end of the Rail Deck Park with a streetcar ROW connection along Bathurst to the DRL at Queen, but that's down the road and I know there are lots of different ideas out there. There are many variables. We'll see how the city changes as these projects unfold and what becomes priority.

 

[Rainforest]

The answer to not to run two separate services along Queen St. The answer is to ensure Bloor-Danforth or downtown YUS levels of stop spacing on the DRL, such that a streetcar from Roncesvalles to River St is simply not needed. Stops every 600 metres will eliminate the need for a streetcar on this corridor through the core.

It will probably be much cheaper to build DRL with wide stop spacing, and retain the streetcars for local service on Queen.

The route structure may be adjusted, with some routes (Kingston Rd, Long Branch) feeding into the closest subway station on Queen, and the main service (Beaches - Humber?) may have rush-hour branches that connect the edges to the closest subway station.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

It will probably be much cheaper to build DRL with wide stop spacing, and retain the streetcars for local service on Queen.

The route structure may be adjusted, with some routes (Kingston Rd, Long Branch) feeding into the closest subway station on Queen, and the main service (Beaches - Humber?) may have rush-hour branches that connect the edges to the closest subway station.

It is, but the line shouldn't be just about providing relief to Yonge, but to serve as an eventual network of stations for the core area. Cutting back on the number of stations is detrimental to that goal.

AoD

 

[Hopkins123]

It will probably be much cheaper to build DRL with wide stop spacing, and retain the streetcars for local service on Queen.

The route structure may be adjusted, with some routes (Kingston Rd, Long Branch) feeding into the closest subway station on Queen, and the main service (Beaches - Humber?) may have rush-hour branches that connect the edges to the closest subway station.

Of what use to most of us is a cheaper DRL if it does not connect to major cross intersections and destinations downtown? The DRL may very well the last major subway expansion the City/region ever undertakes. We cannot afford to be stingy with it.

Central Bloor-Danforth/downtown YUS levels of stop spacing is more than reasonable for the stretch from Queen-Carlaw to Queen-Roncesvalles. The spacing officially planned for the DRL largely reflects this; except for the omission of a stop at Parliament St. (and thus shifting the "Sherbourne" stop further west to close the gap between it and Yonge).

 

[W. K. Lis]

If the DRL west goes up the railway to Dundas West or beyond, the 501 and 504 streetcars would still be needed.

 

[BurlOak]

It is, but the line shouldn't be just about providing relief to Yonge, but to serve as an eventual network of stations for the core area. Cutting back on the number of stations is detrimental to that goal.

AoD

That's why it's important to have a shallow, cut-and-cover line. That way the marginal cost of an extra station is not prohibitive.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

That's why it's important to have a shallow, cut-and-cover line. That way the marginal cost of an extra station is not prohibitive.

Only where possible without bizarre split stations and other weird alignments. It's not an either/or - it is what's right for each location.

AoD

 

[W. K. Lis]

I think that between the stations, the tunnels can go deep, but rise upward at stations to be as close to the surface as possible. The tunnels don't have to stay at one level, but rise up or down as needed.