mistersg1
Active Member
Nowhere did I say that I am ignoring the RYG traffic signal when I saw the white light of the walk signal, what I said is that I don't have to fear being caught in a dilemma zone if that is seen.
Universal Truth #2 is busted, but currently nowhere to my knowledge in Ontario sets up hand flashes during the yellow or red clearance, at least with a traditional signalling scenario. (Not counting situations like pedestrian scrambles)
I know Hamilton used to Don't Walk flash into the yellow phase, but that was discontinued when the countdown was introduced sometime in the late 20-aughts or early 2010s.
With my experience in downtown Toronto as a pedestrian, the steady don't walk is the main signal that pedestrians respect. I understand what you're saying, a longer walk phase can be shown by extending the flashing don't walk right until the cross street gets their leading pedestrian interval. But watching pedestrian behaviour, you notice that the vast majority of pedestrians do not obey the flashing don't walk at all. My guess is that extending the walk signal display time, by making the steady don't walk appear later on won't change how pedestrians behave in regards to the flashing don't walk.
Besides, the amount of time that is chopped off the steady don't walk is almost negligible, a four second amber plus a two second all red is 6 seconds. More recently, downtown Toronto has dramatically shortened the amber to 1 or 2 seconds, I'll get back to that point later, so even so, now that time which is lost is a mere 4 seconds.
Also, somewhat ironically, I've always felt that the countdown actually encourages pedestrians to enter the intersection on a flashing don't walk signal. As the countdown implies to many pedestrians the amount of time they have left. "I see 8 seconds left, if I walk fast I can make it to the other side). I understand that's not the intended purpose of the countdown, but I'm sure most pedestrians see it the way I'm describing it. When before we had countdowns, when the steady don't walk would appear would make you less likely to enter during a flashing don't walk.
As for Universal Truth #1, it still holds true if we are looking at the RIGHT pedestrian signal relative to the direction we are traveling, and this concept must be considered if we are going to allow cyclists to proceed legally on a leading pedestrian interval. The law would have to be written as something like "Cyclists can only proceed on a circular red and walk signal if the walk signal is to the right of their direction of travel". Technically speaking, if we allow cyclists to proceed on a "walk signal", that would mean on SB Yonge at Front for example, cyclists could see the walk signal on the left side (which would appear when NB Yonge gets its protected left turn) and thus legally be allowed to proceed, which would of course cause a nasty conflict involving turning vehicles, that's why this law must be carefully written.
While I do know that the intersections of Lake Shore just east of the Humber use lagging left turns or lead-lag left turns (and they are all FPLT situations mind you), generally speaking, lagging left turn movements are rare in the province. Lagging PPLTs even more so because of the safe strict conditions to avoid the "yellow trap" situation.
To my last points about amber/yellow lights, as I understand, the traffic control systems inside those cabinets are generally the same system across North America. However, the legality of the yellow signal itself varies by jurisdiction. As we described, a yellow signal in Ontario, means you MUST stop unless unable to do so, in a sense, this yellow can be thought of as an extension of the red signal. While in neighbouring New York State on the other hand, drivers can proceed on a yellow no matter what, this alternatively can be thought of as an extension of the green.
Remember that police officers enforce the highway traffic act, so the ball is in their court at the end of the day as to what point in the yellow can the driver stop safely. I'd much prefer to make a harder stop then to risk "proceeding with caution" on the yellow, because I'm not sure legally in the eyes of the police officer if I had enough time to stop or not.
Also, factor in the ultra short yellow signals in downtown Toronto nowadays (which I can see being a problem in the night hours especially) and it almost becomes impossible to stop on time if you're travelling even at 30km/h at a quiet time downtown.
If our yellow light is going to be seen legally as an extension of a red light, then we almost need a pre-yellow signal, like the slow green flash they use in Eastern Europe for example. The advanced warning flashers do help, but they are generally rare to be seen around here.
