Roads: Traffic Signals

[turbanplanner]

Yes. It will have the same volume in the long term. This is what we are telling you.

And I fundamentally disagree! It’s like the tired induced demand argument. I’m not going to drive somewhere just because the road is empty! Tickets to Vancouver or five times cheaper than the last time I went! I’m still not going for no reason

 

[afransen]

This is why my suggestion was for one or two days a week. Even if we make it 100% work from home what would they use the highway for?

You can't require 100% WFH. Many jobs require physical presence.

 

[afransen]

And I fundamentally disagree! It’s like the tired induced demand argument. I’m not going to drive somewhere just because the road is empty! Tickets to Vancouver or five times cheaper than the last time I went! I’m still not going for no reason

You will drive further (more km) if you can do so in the same time. People who are only willing to live as far as Mississauga could consider moving to Burlington if highways were less congested. I don't know what to say if you think induced demand is 'tired'. There is ample evidence to support it. Every highway expansion quickly fills up and returns to a similar level of congestion within a matter of years.

 

[turbanplanner]

You can't require 100% WFH. Many jobs require physical presence.

This was just a hypothetical, and it obviously implied only jobs where it’s possible

 

[turbanplanner]

You will drive further (more km) if you can do so in the same time. People who are only willing to live as far as Mississauga could consider moving to Burlington if highways were less congested. I don't know what to say if you think induced demand is 'tired'. There is ample evidence to support it. Every highway expansion quickly fills up and returns to a similar level of congestion within a matter of years.

But people only drive those distances because they have to go downtown (or wherever) for work!

I also find it so two-faced that if a transit line fills up People are happy, but if a road fills up suddenly, it’s a failure????

 

[afransen]

But people only drive those distances because they have to go downtown (or wherever) for work!

I also find it so two-faced that if a transit line fills up People are happy, but if a road fills up suddenly, it’s a failure????

Transit is far more efficient.

 

[smably]

I also find it so two-faced that if a transit line fills up People are happy, but if a road fills up suddenly, it’s a failure????

I mean, one of these scenarios comes with all kinds of negative externalities? Doesn't seem that hard to understand.

 

[reaperexpress]

And I fundamentally disagree! It’s like the tired induced demand argument. I’m not going to drive somewhere just because the road is empty! Tickets to Vancouver or five times cheaper than the last time I went! I’m still not going for no reason

Unfortunately disagreeing with what we've observed consistently over the past century doesn't make it go away. The fact is that sometimes the world is more complicated than one's simplistic mental model of it, and you need to accept that things that just beause something seems like "common sense" doesn't make it true.

 

[turbanplanner]

Unfortunately disagreeing with what we've observed consistently over the past century doesn't make it go away. The fact is that sometimes the world is more complicated than one's simplistic mental model of it, and you need to accept that things that just beause something seems like "common sense" doesn't make it true.

I'm going to agree to disagree, I think models and observations tend to be more wrong than right. Otherwise they wouldn't have said closing 3/4 the lanes on lakeshore would add 8 mins when it really added 4 hours.

 

[adys123]

I'm going to agree to disagree, I think models and observations tend to be more wrong than right. Otherwise they wouldn't have said closing 3/4 the lanes on lakeshore would add 8 mins when it really added 4 hours.

Usually agreeing to disagree applies to opinions, not academically researched facts. Keep in mind, these are also observations, not observations on the hourly or daily scale; but on the yearly and multi-year scale.

 

[Northern Light]

May I say, many fine arguments though I see made above, does this particular tangent actually have anything to do with traffic signals?

 

[mistersg1]

I’ve lived in Brampton all my life, so I can speak when road systems changed.

I don’t care what your credentials are, reaper, but you’ve shown your true colours now. Induced demand I will simply say is hogwash.

Everyone seems to forget that cities GROW, which happened quick in Brampton due to high immigration, it’s that simple.

Much of Hwy 410 as we know it for example, as it’s been brought up, prior to the 2015 widening, was virtually the same as it was in 1991. Back then, Brampton had a population under 200,000, I don’t know how much exactly but it’s a fraction of what it is today.

As cities grow, more people use the infrastructure, and thus more traffic finds its way onto Hwy 410 as the place has grown.

This similar effect is true with hospitals, the old Peel Memorial Hospital closed down in 2007 and was replaced with a modern hospital, Brampton Civic Hospital. By your logic, I guess we shouldn’t build more hospitals because a new hospital would simply jam up to capacity like the old one did over time, it’s honesty the same logic.

The reason simply why more traffic exists is because a lot more people live in Brampton, it’s not rocket science.


I’m for balanced solutions going forward, that is building true rapid transit, not half baked nonsense like transit city. Just over a half century ago, Metro Toronto agreed it would focus on transit and not build any new freeways…..and where exactly are we with that. A true worthwhile subway line hasn’t been built since The Beatles were still making music together.


A few more points about Hwy 410 before I wrap this up, the widening which happened in 2015 ended up having trickery up its sleeve, the MTO made it worse because they in essence took lane capacity away. With all the quick lane drops now before Queen Street, 3 in a span of just under 1.5 km, prior to the widening, 3 lanes got past Clark, technically only 2 lanes get past Clark now as the HOV acts as the 3rd lane.

Similarly regarding induced demand, Hwy 410 has definitely improved Heart Lake Road north of Bovaird, do you remember when Hwy 410 ended and became Heart Lake Road, it was in essence an arterial with a school on it, now it’s a quiet and peaceful collector, even a good 15 years after that Hwy 410 extension opened. Induced demand says every road would fill up would
It not?

 

[reaperexpress]

Oh no, I've given up the jig! My true colours are exposed!

 

[adys123]

Oh nice, now induced demand is a conspiracy

 

[innsertnamehere]

Oh nice, now induced demand is a conspiracy

induced demand is not a conspiracy, but it's also vastly misportrayed in media and most people have a sincere misunderstanding of what it is, how it happens, and the extent of it. New road infrastructure can and usually does result in substantial travel time improvements, even over the long term. It does also tend to induce new trips which previously didn't exist, because, well, they weren't previously possible.

The discussion around induced demand needs to shift from "new roads will make more trips and that means we are just as good to not build it than to build it" - which is very disingenuous and just not true, to a conversation of what types trips we want to be inducing and what the best ways are to serve transportation needs of communities.