299 bloor call control.
Senior Member
LOL.. i've been here a while, on SSP longer, and it is essentially impossible to be an employee at the TTC not knowing... mike...
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Potshots at the TTC
- Thread starter Lilibet
- Start date
unimaginative2
Senior Member
Yeah but come on, 299, the problems with the Queen car have been there for years, going on decades now and the TTC has done absolutely not a thing to improve service. Suddenly, with a lot of prodding, they finally seem to be talking about looking at taking some action. I know there are a lot of people in the planning department, but there's still a severe problem with inertia from the political level on down.
What about Spadina? Everybody knows it has abysmally unreliable service even though it operates on an ROW that the TTC says should make service perfect. I've heard a lot of excuses, among them the transit priority not being turned on. Surely after more than a decade, the TTC staff could have cajoled some of the Commissioners into making an issue of this. There's no question that many of the commissioners (Mihevc, Giambrone, etc.) would be more than willing to stick up for the ideas of TTC staff.
What about Spadina? Everybody knows it has abysmally unreliable service even though it operates on an ROW that the TTC says should make service perfect. I've heard a lot of excuses, among them the transit priority not being turned on. Surely after more than a decade, the TTC staff could have cajoled some of the Commissioners into making an issue of this. There's no question that many of the commissioners (Mihevc, Giambrone, etc.) would be more than willing to stick up for the ideas of TTC staff.
ITcomputer
Active Member
I wouldn't have thought spacing out streetcars was rocket science. 
299 bloor call control.
Senior Member
The Queen streetcar problems became particularly acute after the route on the west end was merged creating an incredibly long route that is the cause of all the problems... but they did it to try to solve another problem.. and then created a new one.. and trust me, Queen is looked at every single year during the annual route review process, and being part of three Public Meetings for service improvements and seeing the suggestions, there were hardly any that the public could come up with either... this is the first time where there is very constructive dialogue to try to solve the problem with a fresh face and I honestly do think it could be the start of a more productive relationship with the riding public who cares enough to know not to just complain. The Queen car is really one of the most unique beasts in the system.. the trips vary greatly in terms of Origin-Destination and it seems that the traditional weighted travel time approach in analyzing the route isn't the best option, since any break up of the route would create transfers and those are weighed extremely heavily in the passenger benefit... Steve Munro went to great lengths explaining this and probably can do a better job than I ever could, so i won't.
Spadina is another beast that I can't say really is a planning issue, rather an operational one as well, despite the ROW. First, signal priority, despite being installed, isn't fully functional... and it's hard to when you have a streetcar every minute. And to top it off, because of all the U-Turn and Left Turn signals, anything gained by the ROW is lost waiting at each light, which subsequently causes bunching and then unreliable service, ROW or not. If you consider each of the signal phases at the major intersections creates a 90 second or so wait, and if streetcars are running every 90 seconds, there's a very very small margin before the system fails. I think this is one case where the new LRVs will be beneficial, as there could be more spacing between streetcars (ie, lower frequency) and therefore, less bunching and hopefully more reliable service. ANd when i say lower frequency, I mean it'll drop from every 90 seconds to every 2 1/2 to 3 minutes.. which isn't a long wait and definitely will be better that a streetcar will actually be coming according to schedule. It's nearly impossible with the number of streetcars on the route right now on such a short stretch (which really is just Bloor to King). But I think the worst issue on Spadina are the passengers themselves. THe morning rush shows how disorderly TTC passengers can be and if common sense and courtesy kicked in a bit, Spadina would run so much better. It's great that the people at the station have learned to line up to board the rear doors. It disgusts me that the ones at the front have not learned the same lesson. It makes boarding a lot faster and more efficient. Secondly, when the streetcar's full, DON'T GET ON IT! I've been on, and seen streetcars delayed for minutes because of a few "i'm too much in a rush to care" passengers trying to squeeze on, or for the ones who don't know to get off the bottom step so the doors can close. THis is all while there's a lineup of two streetcars behind the full one waiting to proceed to the boarding area. Thankfully during the busiest times, there's TTC staff there to stop boarding when it's full... but that blob of impatient lunatics at the front of the streetcar at the station to board just makes me wonder. This same situation happens at every single stop along the route, with impatient people, rude people, crushing onto streetcars. I can see why they may be, since they might think that this COULD be the last one before another huge gap... but if everyone would just relax and wait.. or even just walk down or up a stop, it would naturally help smooth out some of the boarding related issues... again, this hopefully will be something that will be alleviated with the new streetcars.
Until then though, I've been tempted (since I no longer work at the TTC) to go on a guerilla mission overnight on Spadina one day and spray paint ad-hoc queues on the sidewalk to indicate that people should line up for the streetcar.. and very clearly mark that the space at the stop beyond the front of the stop is not a pass to board without regard to the fact that most people are indeed lining up patiently. Just today, there were about 15 people in line at King, all of us freezing from the wind... and these two men just walk from the north end of the stop and plant themselves at the front of the line. I tell them there's a line and he pretends he doesn't listen.. I make the point again when the streetcar arrives -- and he's like "well you can go first" as if he had just vindicated himself...
also as part of the mission, I'd put up posters reminding U of T students that it's a 5 minute walk to the subway from Harbord.... or to like the subway holding doors delays everyone campaign a poster saying another streetcar is two minutes away and you really ARE delaying everyone by trying to squeeze on...
i think it's a matter too of operators not being aggressive enough in not letting people board when it gets full. but to their credit, they've been doign it more and more... but it doesn't help when you're scared somebody's gonan try to smash the front window after you don't let them on (which I have witnessed before)
Spadina is another beast that I can't say really is a planning issue, rather an operational one as well, despite the ROW. First, signal priority, despite being installed, isn't fully functional... and it's hard to when you have a streetcar every minute. And to top it off, because of all the U-Turn and Left Turn signals, anything gained by the ROW is lost waiting at each light, which subsequently causes bunching and then unreliable service, ROW or not. If you consider each of the signal phases at the major intersections creates a 90 second or so wait, and if streetcars are running every 90 seconds, there's a very very small margin before the system fails. I think this is one case where the new LRVs will be beneficial, as there could be more spacing between streetcars (ie, lower frequency) and therefore, less bunching and hopefully more reliable service. ANd when i say lower frequency, I mean it'll drop from every 90 seconds to every 2 1/2 to 3 minutes.. which isn't a long wait and definitely will be better that a streetcar will actually be coming according to schedule. It's nearly impossible with the number of streetcars on the route right now on such a short stretch (which really is just Bloor to King). But I think the worst issue on Spadina are the passengers themselves. THe morning rush shows how disorderly TTC passengers can be and if common sense and courtesy kicked in a bit, Spadina would run so much better. It's great that the people at the station have learned to line up to board the rear doors. It disgusts me that the ones at the front have not learned the same lesson. It makes boarding a lot faster and more efficient. Secondly, when the streetcar's full, DON'T GET ON IT! I've been on, and seen streetcars delayed for minutes because of a few "i'm too much in a rush to care" passengers trying to squeeze on, or for the ones who don't know to get off the bottom step so the doors can close. THis is all while there's a lineup of two streetcars behind the full one waiting to proceed to the boarding area. Thankfully during the busiest times, there's TTC staff there to stop boarding when it's full... but that blob of impatient lunatics at the front of the streetcar at the station to board just makes me wonder. This same situation happens at every single stop along the route, with impatient people, rude people, crushing onto streetcars. I can see why they may be, since they might think that this COULD be the last one before another huge gap... but if everyone would just relax and wait.. or even just walk down or up a stop, it would naturally help smooth out some of the boarding related issues... again, this hopefully will be something that will be alleviated with the new streetcars.
Until then though, I've been tempted (since I no longer work at the TTC) to go on a guerilla mission overnight on Spadina one day and spray paint ad-hoc queues on the sidewalk to indicate that people should line up for the streetcar.. and very clearly mark that the space at the stop beyond the front of the stop is not a pass to board without regard to the fact that most people are indeed lining up patiently. Just today, there were about 15 people in line at King, all of us freezing from the wind... and these two men just walk from the north end of the stop and plant themselves at the front of the line. I tell them there's a line and he pretends he doesn't listen.. I make the point again when the streetcar arrives -- and he's like "well you can go first" as if he had just vindicated himself...
also as part of the mission, I'd put up posters reminding U of T students that it's a 5 minute walk to the subway from Harbord.... or to like the subway holding doors delays everyone campaign a poster saying another streetcar is two minutes away and you really ARE delaying everyone by trying to squeeze on...
i think it's a matter too of operators not being aggressive enough in not letting people board when it gets full. but to their credit, they've been doign it more and more... but it doesn't help when you're scared somebody's gonan try to smash the front window after you don't let them on (which I have witnessed before)
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Here's something the TTC can do: run Rocket buses on every major arterial route. It'll cost basically nothing, but both capacity and ridership will go up, travel times will go down, and maybe even the precious efficiency stats will improve. I've emailed this suggestion a couple times over the years and written it down at a few public consultation events, but I'm not aware of any plan to duplicate the wild success of the 190.
Oh, and when people refer to "The TTC" they are not always referring exclusively to TTC staff, they may sometimes be referring to 'transit' in general, including bus drivers, planners, councillors, prov. and fed. governments, etc.
Oh, and when people refer to "The TTC" they are not always referring exclusively to TTC staff, they may sometimes be referring to 'transit' in general, including bus drivers, planners, councillors, prov. and fed. governments, etc.
unimaginative2
Senior Member
Scarberiankhatru's idea is an excellent one.
299, I appreciate your comments and information. Please don't take any criticisms of the TTC as some kind of personal disagreement.
If the Queen car extension to Long Branch was known to be causing all these problems, why was it retained for a decade? Obviously these aren't questions that you or likely anybody can answer.
As for the 510, the scheduled headways aren't as close as you suggest. Taken from Steve Munro's site, here are the weekday headways north of King:
* AM peak: 3′00″
* Midday: 2′00″
* PM peak: 2′06″
Note that two thirds of the cars turn back at King, so service is much poorer south of there. With the new condo developments, the summer extension south to Queens Quay should be carried forward to all-year. The most obvious change is to be made to the signals, including creating two-phase pedestrian crossings, and this should have been done within months of the line opening. I can understand signals causing two-vehicle bunch-ups, but I routinely see three or four vehicles bunched up, even on the reduced-frequency portion south of King. That can't be explained by signals. I ride the route all the time. I see how they often leave Spadina station in packs, so it's pretty hard to re-create the headways mid-route.
I used to ride Spadina several times a day, and I've experienced all of the problems with the line. The reality, though, is that the TTC's job is to move people, not streetcars and buses. They're entirely incidental. People should be able to conveniently ride without taking a course in TTC rules and procedures. If people don't happen to follow the exact best practices for TTC customers, and this causes severe problems with the line management, that's not their fault. It's the TTC's fault for designing a system that doesn't meet the needs of its riders. Obviously some people refuse to move to the back, and they should listen, but that's also a problem with vehicle design. Many people worry that they won't make it off at their stop if they're standing all the way at the back. People standing on the front step in a wildly-overcrowded vehicle is clearly a pretty unavoidable situation, and it suggests that the TTC should be providing more capacity. You can't fault people for wanting to get on the first vehicle that comes to their stop, especially when it's twenty below, and people have the right to be in a hurry. If the vehicle is totally full, the driver should politely ask riders to take the vehicle right behind. If there is room, there's no reason why people shouldn't be allowed to board. The TTC really needs to get into more of a customer service mentality. The customer is always right in a service business, and it's the TTC's job to move people around the city, not transit vehicles.
I think that by far the most obvious and critical solution is to implement a system of vehicle control and line management that doesn't involve a supervisor standing at the side of the road and giving instructions. All vehicles should be tracked by GPS or a comparable system and dispatched from a central office that has a complete picture of the whole line.
Another urgent change would be the implementation of a new fare collection arrangement on some of the busiest streetcar routes, especially Spadina. Like I said, I used to ride Spadina several times a day, and the biggest cause of slowdowns were the endless parades of people digging for change and paying their fare at the busy stations. POP is one option, and maybe some kind of Curitiba-style bus tubes would be another approach, with the added benefit of some climate control on that very windswept street.
299, I appreciate your comments and information. Please don't take any criticisms of the TTC as some kind of personal disagreement.
If the Queen car extension to Long Branch was known to be causing all these problems, why was it retained for a decade? Obviously these aren't questions that you or likely anybody can answer.
As for the 510, the scheduled headways aren't as close as you suggest. Taken from Steve Munro's site, here are the weekday headways north of King:
* AM peak: 3′00″
* Midday: 2′00″
* PM peak: 2′06″
Note that two thirds of the cars turn back at King, so service is much poorer south of there. With the new condo developments, the summer extension south to Queens Quay should be carried forward to all-year. The most obvious change is to be made to the signals, including creating two-phase pedestrian crossings, and this should have been done within months of the line opening. I can understand signals causing two-vehicle bunch-ups, but I routinely see three or four vehicles bunched up, even on the reduced-frequency portion south of King. That can't be explained by signals. I ride the route all the time. I see how they often leave Spadina station in packs, so it's pretty hard to re-create the headways mid-route.
I used to ride Spadina several times a day, and I've experienced all of the problems with the line. The reality, though, is that the TTC's job is to move people, not streetcars and buses. They're entirely incidental. People should be able to conveniently ride without taking a course in TTC rules and procedures. If people don't happen to follow the exact best practices for TTC customers, and this causes severe problems with the line management, that's not their fault. It's the TTC's fault for designing a system that doesn't meet the needs of its riders. Obviously some people refuse to move to the back, and they should listen, but that's also a problem with vehicle design. Many people worry that they won't make it off at their stop if they're standing all the way at the back. People standing on the front step in a wildly-overcrowded vehicle is clearly a pretty unavoidable situation, and it suggests that the TTC should be providing more capacity. You can't fault people for wanting to get on the first vehicle that comes to their stop, especially when it's twenty below, and people have the right to be in a hurry. If the vehicle is totally full, the driver should politely ask riders to take the vehicle right behind. If there is room, there's no reason why people shouldn't be allowed to board. The TTC really needs to get into more of a customer service mentality. The customer is always right in a service business, and it's the TTC's job to move people around the city, not transit vehicles.
I think that by far the most obvious and critical solution is to implement a system of vehicle control and line management that doesn't involve a supervisor standing at the side of the road and giving instructions. All vehicles should be tracked by GPS or a comparable system and dispatched from a central office that has a complete picture of the whole line.
Another urgent change would be the implementation of a new fare collection arrangement on some of the busiest streetcar routes, especially Spadina. Like I said, I used to ride Spadina several times a day, and the biggest cause of slowdowns were the endless parades of people digging for change and paying their fare at the busy stations. POP is one option, and maybe some kind of Curitiba-style bus tubes would be another approach, with the added benefit of some climate control on that very windswept street.
unimaginative2
Senior Member
Here are some quotations from Steve Munro's latest timely post on the Queen Car. The rest of it is well worth a look. These excerpts and the rest of the post show that most of the problems on the route are purely based on poor or non-existent line management. They have nothing to do with congestion, funding, number or vehicles, or any other external factor. According to Steve Munro, these data have never been analyzed by the TTC to find problems, and it took a layman transit advocate to do it. That doesn't sound like a good faith effort by the TTC to improve service if they've been well-aware of the problems for years.
ganjavih
Senior Member
Oh, you silly spoiled Torontonians. I'd love to see how you'd survive having to use transit systems in other cities.
ITcomputer
Active Member
If it was Paris or Madrid, I guess I would survive just fine.
unimaginative2
Senior Member
The Zoo Rocket is a perfect example of a route that the TTC decided would fail before it even began, and then ensured that failure through a total lack of promotion. I've spoken to many people in the Meadowvale and Sheppard area who all were astonished that such a service once existed, and said that they would have definitely used the route if they had known about it. Nobody at all was aware that it also stopped at their intersection as the TTC marketed it simply as an STC-Zoo service. The TTC simply added the route to the schedule and nobody knew about it aside from the city and TTC staff, and transit geeks.
Now, we're building a $600+ million streetcar to that intersection.
Now, we're building a $600+ million streetcar to that intersection.
ITcomputer
Active Member
^ I'm sure once the TTC website is redesigned those new routes will be well promoted.. TTC website redesign anyone? anyone? ....uh hello?
unimaginative2
Senior Member
Yeah, but a lot of people don't carefully parse the TTC website to discover that the "Zoo Rocket" also serves Meadowvale. The TTC should have given flyers to every house, and had announcements or flyers on the Meadowvale and Sheppard buses to indicate the new route. Same goes for any other new Rocket route or service change.
299 bloor call control.
Senior Member
when the Zoo Rocket failed the first time, the commission (not staff) voted to keep it running for another season with increased marketing, and it was promoted quite well on the Zoo's website, signage at the RT, and using the TTC's ad space in the Metro, and in the "What's On" brochure (when I mean the commission said more promotion, usually it doesn't mean anything at all, because it's not like they allocate more money to advertising in these situations).... the second year, ridership actually fell, but that could be attributed to factors, and at best, it would have been constant. I agree that more marketing probably would have helped... but the marketing budget isn't particularly enormous and what is there is usually allocated for the safety campaigns that tend to be of greater importance (though I can, and many of you can, argue that those campaigns are pretty pointless)
THe same thing is happening with the 108 Parc Downsview Park route... though really.. what is there to market that route for? To watch the old runways erode?
As for the TTC website, the tender for the redesign will be awarded on December 7th. There are 17 active bids for that tender:
"Website Experts" sounds like a firm that will do the TTC good
I remember hearing recently Giambrone saying that once the tender is awarded, the new site should be up and running in the spring... and sicne it's actually being done by an outside firm, I can actually believe that.
THe same thing is happening with the 108 Parc Downsview Park route... though really.. what is there to market that route for? To watch the old runways erode?
As for the TTC website, the tender for the redesign will be awarded on December 7th. There are 17 active bids for that tender:
"Website Experts" sounds like a firm that will do the TTC good
I remember hearing recently Giambrone saying that once the tender is awarded, the new site should be up and running in the spring... and sicne it's actually being done by an outside firm, I can actually believe that.
299 bloor call control.
Senior Member
From the November Commission Meeting:
unimaginative2
Senior Member
Thanks for posting that list! I'm going to check them out.
I know the Zoo Rocket was marketed, but it was marketed as a purely Zoo route. The TTC should have been aware that much (most?) of the ridership on the route would come from the Meadowvale and Sheppard area (they could have studied it if necessary) and let local residents know. Besides, no matter how much marketing has been done, if many regular TTC riders in the neighbourhood aren't even aware the service exists, it isn't enough.
I know the Zoo Rocket was marketed, but it was marketed as a purely Zoo route. The TTC should have been aware that much (most?) of the ridership on the route would come from the Meadowvale and Sheppard area (they could have studied it if necessary) and let local residents know. Besides, no matter how much marketing has been done, if many regular TTC riders in the neighbourhood aren't even aware the service exists, it isn't enough.