Fate of the SRT

[scarberiankhatru]

I said 'upwards' of an hour. It's not at all unbelievable that someone starting out from say Morningside Heights would be commutely endlessly to the Town Centre. I think alot of these LRT vs. subway debates could be appeased so long as the SRT extension/expansion is designed such that it could one day accomodate subway cars. You of all people should know that if we can reduce travel times on buses by 50-80% by building mass transit outwards towards Malvern (or insert any other substantial suburban neighborhood demographic), for relative pennies on the dollar we should go for it. Like I said before keeping Sheppard on Sheppard Avenue is cheaper than a jog through industrial sprawl, not to mention serving an area of limitless potential.

Responding to statements like this is a complete waste of time, but there's all kinds of impressionable people here that might read it and think it has merit.

Malvern is not substantial by any definition of the term. Malvern only has 80,000 people. It's virtually at full build out, too...there's nothing left but parkland.

Most of the 15,000 or so people in Morningside Heights have no interest in transit - some actually fought to have sidewalks on their cul-de-sacs removed so they could fit multiple SUVs on their driveways. The 133 runs from M.Heights to STC by way of Centenary Hospital before coming back north to STC. This routing is simply retarded and the trip to STC could be cut in half by running along the 401, for no added money. How would an RT extension to Markham & Sheppard help them, anyway? The 133 would have to be rerouted to intercept it, so why can't it be rerouted now, saving a billion dollars? Compared to a subway extension, the RT extension won't save anyone in Malvern more than a minute or two of travel time. Literally, a minute or two. At a greater cost than the subway extension, and serving less than one third the number of people. And I haven't even yet accounted for the fact that a GO station on the Midtown/Pickering line will soon be located at Morningside & Finch or at Neilson, within walking distance of lots of the people currently complaining about how the 133 takes such a circuitous route to STC.

More people will soon be living in the "industrial sprawl" between Kennedy and STC than will live in all of Morningside Heights. The mere hint of a subway extension will enable Tridel to sell 2000 units at Kennedy & the 401. Running Sheppard through there would also be cheaper than running it under Sheppard to the middle of nowhere.

You want to renovate the RT to subway standards...with 500 foot platforms and everything? That's the stupidest thing I've heard in a long time. Why not just extend the damn subway?

 

[DENTROBATE54]

Responding to statements like this is a complete waste of time, but there's all kinds of impressionable people here that might read it and think it has merit.

It does have merit. I told you countless times I'd sooner see a city-wide network of BRT/LRT of which the SRT could be the archetype. But if majority consensus thinks that only a subway will do, why not just go the extra 5kms and enclose the loop vis a vis Sheppard/Markham?

About that GO station, it's not a lock, guaranteed done deal as Midtown is the busiest freight corridor throughout Toronto and could not possibly accomodate commuter trains at the frequency level to maintain a reliable all-day mass transit link to the urban enclave that is Malvern-Morningside Hts. However following your lead from Sheppard-Markham, which would already house rerouted buses could also implement an automated shuttle adjacent the rail corridor to Neilson/McLevin. Think outside the box.

Malvern is not substantial by any definition of the term. Malvern only has 80,000 people. It's virtually at full build out, too...there's nothing left but parkland.

That's double the total daily ridership of the current Sheppard line AND of the SRT. That's also quadruple the projected additional ridership of the YUS extensions will be for two decades. Even if a third didn't commute, still don't be discriminating by area code because these residents don't deserve any less than the best if the layout model for the TTC in the past couple of decades is to build monster terminii for a milleu of redundant bus routes in inhospitable rail/hydro corridors.

Mass transit where a mass of human population converge, is that so hard to comprehend Scarberian? SCC would still be the major hub, but not the only hub is all I'm saying, much like York Region has Vaughan Mills, Promenade, Richmond Hill Centre, Unionville GO, Markville/Markham Centre, Bernard, etc. One city, multiple transit hubs.

Compared to a subway extension, the RT extension won't save anyone in Malvern more than a minute or two of travel time. Literally, a minute or two. At a greater cost than the subway extension, and serving less than one third the number of people.
You want to renovate the RT to subway standards...with 500 foot platforms and everything? That's the stupidest thing I've heard in a long time. Why not just extend the damn subway?

When did I ever say that? What's stupid is miscommunicating my ideas then turn around and accuse me of said miscommunications and deceit. This is the subway I'd like to see heading into SCC:

- Brimley-Danforth
- McCowan-Lawrence
- SCC

That part is never wavering. If anything it's the Sheppard Line over BD that should head for Sheppard-Markham before veering southwest via Centennial College (big major campus, 134C serves every 5 mins major!) to link up with BD. That would get subways two-thirds scross the area of Scarborough and through most of the northern hemisphere beyond the 401. That's the subway option I elected to endorse here if we must continue extending Sheppard.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

That's double the total daily ridership of the current Sheppard line AND of the SRT. That's also quadruple the projected additional ridership of the YUS extensions will be for two decades. Even if a third didn't commute, still don't be discriminating by area code because these residents don't deserve any less than the best if the layout model for the TTC in the past couple of decades is to build monster terminii for a milleu of redundant bus routes in inhospitable rail/hydro corridors.

Are you translating your posts into English through Babelfish?

80,000 is the population of Malvern. 20,000 is the number of daily rides between Malvern and STC, with maybe 10,000 along Sheppard and a few thousand more on other assorted routes. Please tell me how maybe 35,000 rides a day spread around multiple corridors can justify two subway lines, a GO line, and a Morningside LRT. I'm not discriminating by area code, I'm discriminating by a staggering lack of people and scarcity of riders.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

Are you translating your posts into English through Babelfish?

80,000 is the population of Malvern. 20,000 is the number of daily rides between Malvern and STC, with maybe 10,000 along Sheppard and a few thousand more on other assorted routes. Please tell me how maybe 35,000 rides a day spread around multiple corridors can justify two subway lines, a GO line, and a Morningside LRT. I'm not discriminating by area code, I'm discriminating by a staggering lack of people and scarcity of riders.

Aw, big words like "quadruple" and "milleu" intimidate you. Poor thing.

You must have me confused for somebody else because I never claimed I wanted to see two subways, a LRT line and GO services in Malvern. Sheppard-Markham is close enough and still has sizable patches of land for not only a bus terminus but whatever condo-cosms it'll take to convince you this part pf Sheppard Ave is as important as Bayview Mews. Staggering lack of people is applicable to almost everywhere a subway line could be extended through. Path to Sherway Gdns, people? Path to York U, VCC, people? Path to RHC, you said the rich don't ride transit. Outside of the downtown core you'll never see Union/Bloor-Yonge/St George levels of usage, BUT and I stress but that doesn't mean we should discriminate by area code.

Can we forget Malvern just for a moment and look at the broader picture shall we? Even if we convert the SRT to subway, hence sparing an interchange at Kennedy, you still haven't explained how that'll make the bus commute from point X, Scarborough to the Town entre any less.If your model proposal did anything in the way of serving new communities, I'd have no qualms with it. Building subways just to duplicate existing service is a waste, especially when said subway you're extending has exceeded capacity.

On the contrary, Sheppard subway, which I'm not 100% certain is necessary either, is still relatively new and mutable. Everyone on it destined for STC might also be destined for the major McCowan corridor catchment, Centennial College, the 95 bus and yes even Malvern/Morningside Hts. So if what we do is loop via Sheppard-Markham, we'd be sparing several SEVERAL 000s of people one transfer off the subway and 5/10/15/30? mins waits for their connecting STC bus. Hence getting commuters to their destinations faster. Even York Region benefits more via trippers set up at either McCowan/Sheppard or Markham/Sheppard, not mention a direct link to the 95 bus at Bellamy.

My point, don't be so narrow and closed-minded to possibilities for change when you're already costing taxpayers a kidney (including residents of Malvern, East Scarborough) for massive subway extensions that may as well fulfill an obligation to slashing commute times in more ways than one.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Aw, big words like "quadruple" and "milleu" intimidate you. Poor thing.

You both use and spell these $5 words wrong in almost every post you make.

Sheppard-Markham is close enough and still has sizable patches of land for not only a bus terminus but whatever condo-cosms it'll take to convince you this part pf Sheppard Ave is as important as Bayview Mews. Staggering lack of people is applicable to almost everywhere a subway line could be extended through. Path to Sherway Gdns, people? Path to York U, VCC, people? Path to RHC, you said the rich don't ride transit.

There's only a few acres of land at Markham & Sheppard, maybe enough for about 2 more condos. Bayview Mews (and do you mean Bayview Village?) is far more important because approximately half a million people, tens of thousands of jobs, and several malls and schools lie farther east of there. I said residents of the 100 mansions around Centre Street won't generate riders, not that rich people don't take transit. A Sherway Gardens station would generate as many transit riders as all of Malvern put together just because of the mall. Again, it's not discriminating by area code, it's discriminating by a distinct dearth of people. Population does not mean the same thing as ridership.

Even if we convert the SRT to subway, hence sparing an interchange at Kennedy, you still haven't explained how that'll make the bus commute from point X, Scarborough to the Town entre any less. If your model proposal did anything in the way of serving new communities, I'd have no qualms with it. Building subways just to duplicate existing service is a waste, especially when said subway you're extending has exceeded capacity.

I've already said how...run the 133 along the 401. Search the forum for old posts using the terms "miketoronto" and "express" and you'll find lots more. I believe they're planning a bus lane on McCowan, which will save time, too. Rocket bus routes would be the ideal way to quickly and cheaply serve the rest of Scarborough. Duplicate existing service? You do realize that the RT is literally falling apart and must be replaced, right? A subway extension will not have excess capacity...if riders filled it to crush load capacity by Kennedy station, how would someone at Warden get on? Whatever they build to replace the RT that isn't a subway will be at capacity on day one, requiring immediate plans for an upgrade.

 

[dowlingm]

Here's my prescription:

1. Extend the B-D to STC starting east along Eglinton and then heading north (since that's the way the tail tracks point and there's no point adding ripping up Kennedy Station to the list of expenses). Leave the option to connect to a subway extension from Sheppard.
2. Rip up the SRT and sell the maintenance equipment etc. to Vancouver if they want it. Use the alignment from STC to McCowan as an LRT corridor to link to the Malvern LRT and locate maintenance for both at McCowan Yard unless the land is worth selling off and there's land for a yard elsewhere. If Dalton McGuinty wants to keep SRT in Ontario... well there's always Ottawa eh?
3. Lay heavy rail track passing loops in the freed-up Stouffville corridor to provide more service flexibility and add a connection to the CP at Agincourt or via new track to Claremont north of GO Mount Joy.

 

[unimaginative2]

It would be hard for a word like "milleu" to intimidate anyone, considering that it's not a word.

I agree with your plan for the subway line dowlingm. It's important to note, though, that there really is no conspiracy out there to protect the RT's technology as some kind of Ontario I hear a lot about this on Steve Munro's blog, but I can guarantee to you that Dalton McGuinty neither knows nor cares about the history of the RT's technology. It was sold off to Bombardier years ago, and Ontario's role in its creation has been more-or-less forgotten by everyone but the streetcar afficionados.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

It would be hard for a word like "milleu" to intimidate anyone, considering that it's not a word.

Why do you people think you can outsmart me?

Milieu- the physical or social setting in which something occurs or develops
Etymology: French, from Old French, midst, from miles middle (from Latin medius) + lieu place, from Latin locus. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/milieu

I guess all that suggests that I did in fact use it in the right context as buses would be at a subway location (setting where something occurs). That I slightly mispelt it doesn't affect the pronounciation, hence doesn't really affect the definition. Sorry.

I agree with your plan dowlingm. It's important to note, though, that there really is no conspiracy out there to protect the RT's technology as some kind of Ontario I hear a lot about this on Steve Munro's blog, but I can guarantee to you that Dalton McGuinty neither knows nor cares about the history of the RT's technology. It was sold off to Bombardier years ago, and Ontario's role in its creation has been more-or-less forgotten by everyone but the streetcar afficionados.

The SRT like it or not is/was apart of Toronto's history for a significant number of decades. I'd think if we're going to scrap it at least maintain a heritage musuem. As for the SRT's ROW it still has practical use to transit perhaps for BRT lanes either GO or TTC can utilize.

 

[unimaginative2]

Yeah, I know what a milieu is, but you wrote milleu -- twice -- the second time claiming that its oratorical brilliance intimidates us.

 

[andomano]

I'd think if we're going to scrap it at least maintain a heritage musuem.

It would probably be most cost effective to ship a married pair to Halton County instead of creating a whole new museum over a technology flop (for Toronto's purpose).

 

[DENTROBATE54]

Yeah, I know what a milieu is, but you wrote milleu -- twice -- the second time claiming that its oratorical brilliance intimidates us.

Well excuse me for feeling like I'm being singled out for using dialouge that Scarberian thinks is translated from another language. I'm trying to sound authoratitive and knowledgable that's all. Even if you disagree with my views, there's no need resort to personal attacks of my grammar, speech, ad hominen, etc.

It would probably be most cost effective to ship a married pair to Halton County instead of creating a whole new museum over a technology flop (for Toronto's purpose).

It doesn't cost a thing (relatively speaking) to convert an existing TTC-owned property, get existing vehicles and collaborate a photo gallery. As useless as the SRT's become there was a time when there actually was momentum to expand it, add in more stations and set up similar technologies and ROW right across the city (Etobicoke RT for instance).

Lest we forget, subways aren't the say all, end all of commuting and for many an individual, the SRT is/was a catalyst for change, an archetype for a new city-wide LRT network. Show some reverence please.

 

[unimaginative2]

Dentrobate has a point. ICTS/Skytrain is a globally successful technology developed right here in Ontario. The streetcar movement has successfully discredited it for so long that it might be time for a little something to express our pride in its success.

 

[adma]

It would be hard for a word like "milleu" to intimidate anyone, considering that it's not a word.

Isn't it where this is?

 

[marcus_a_j]

It would probably be most cost effective to ship a married pair to Halton County instead of creating a whole new museum over a technology flop (for Toronto's purpose).

If these were graffitied while at the museum in Milton it might not be so bad because it would fit into the context of where they came from (not Scarborough per se, but the RT corridor with the graffiti that is there)

 

[RedRocket191]

I envision a fully automated Mark II line connecting Seaton with Scarborough and the subway, and a network of connecting lines serving the north-east.