Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[coffey1]

The new alignment is the reason why this thing is not getting built. 4 billion for 9700 riders is ridiculous.

Really? As far as im aware this is what's being built. The alternative is only wanted from those that would never use it & care about feeding issue within their own backyard. 9700 riders is actually good compared to other subway lines in this City.

But hey it's Scarborough get out your pitchforks and join the Toronto Star in the politically driven agenda calls foul on everyone but themselves. Let's cut the crap tax & build the DRL & SSE together & cut out the poorly integrated LRT nonsense. Better bus service and future BRT will do fine to feed riders into the Subway & all Torontonians will have reasonable access quality jobs

The LRT as its designed & funded in Scarborough is more of an inconvenience & doesn't solve the greatest current concern which is isolating the majority of commuters from the core through multiple transfers. The LRT only increases that issue.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Really? As far as im aware this is what's being built. The alternative is only wanted from those that would never use it & care about feeding issue within their own backyard. 9700 riders is actually good compared to other subway lines in this City.

But hey it's Scarborough get out your pitchforks and join the Toronto Star in the politically driven agenda calls foul on everyone but themselves. Let's cut the crap tax & build the DRL & SSE together & cut out the poorly integrated LRT nonsense. Better bus service and future BRT will do fine to feed riders into the Subway & all Torontonians will have reasonable access quality jobs

The LRT as its designed & funded in Scarborough is more of an inconvenience & doesn't solve the greatest current concern which is isolating the majority of commuters from the core through multiple transfers. The LRT only increases that issue.

You really haven't answered why subway along the RT alignment won't work, especially if it is all about BRT feeding riders onto subways. That has nothing to do with "efficiency" - certainly not when the new alignment would have a) less stations and b) serving low density residential areas.

AoD

 

[coffey1]

What's your basis for that?

The infamous September 2013 city report, estimated that the ridership for building subway along the RT alignment to Sheppard was higher than using the McCowan alignment to Sheppard. The catch was, using the existing RT alignment would have cost $4.1 to $4.3 billion rather than $3.6 billion for the McCowan alignment.

Smarttrack/GO RER will eat into some of the Western ridership & eliminate the need for the industrial land stops. I haven't read this one but Id take any consultant report with a grain of salt. Ridership can also change heavily based on what development the City allows in the future.

Neither route is optimal IMO but when the two are compared the McCowan corridor takes a much more Central route & with a stop at Danforth/Eglinton area this line will be highly effective

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Smarttrack/GO RER will eat into some of the Western ridership & eliminate the need for the industrial land stops. I haven't read this one but Id take any consultant report with a grain of salt. Ridership can also change heavily based on what development the City allows in the future.

Neither route is optimal IMO but when the two are compared the McCowan corridor takes a much more Central route & with a stop at Danforth/Eglinton area this line will be highly effective

The McCowan corridor is pure single detached family housing until you get to SCC. Redevelopability along the route is zero, in comparison to industrial lands along the RT corridor.

AoD

 

[coffey1]

Really? As far as im aware this is what's being built. The alternative is only wanted from those that would never use it & care about feeding issue within their own backyard. 9700 riders is actually good compared to other subway lines in this City.

But hey it's Scarborough get out your pitchforks and join the Toronto Star in the politically driven agenda calls foul on everyone but themselves. Let's cut the crap tax & build the DRL & SSE together & cut out the poorly integrated LRT nonsense. Better bus service and future BRT will do fine to feed riders into the Subway & all Torontonians will have reasonable access quality jobs

The LRT as its designed & funded in Scarborough is more of an inconvenience & doesn't solve the greatest current concern which is isolating the majority of commuters from the core through multiple transfers. The LRT only increases that issue.

You really haven't answered why subway along the RT alignment won't work, especially if it is all about BRT feeding riders onto subways. That has nothing to do with "efficiency" - certainly not when the new alignment would have a) less stations and b) serving low density residential areas.

AoD

1.)Its great the SLRT has more stations. But were are those stations? 2 are in the middle of industrial land which could soon be covered by Smarttrack/GO RER. What about Central East and Southeast residents?
2.)Where is this low density you speak of? Scarborough is a mix bag of low/medium & high in throughout. Aside from losing Markham/Sheppard I don't see any benefit to the alignment. Another stop on Eglinton will do great & McCowan/Sheppard has a fair amount of commercial land which should provide solid future development

 

[wopchop]

The McCowan corridor is pure single detached family housing until you get to SCC. Redevelopability along the route is zero, in comparison to industrial lands along the RT corridor.

AoD

To be fair, this isn't exactly true. The single-detached dominance doesn't really start until north of the Pringdale ravine. If you just literally meant along McCowan itself, then yes, from Lawrence to Ellesmere, except for the hospital, is basically only single-family homes.

If you want to talk about rezoning for redevelopment, the SRT corridor is not exactly a slam dunk, because any motion to rezone industrial employment lands is far from guaranteed to pass.

The two key redevelopment zones in the area, IMO, are Scarborough City Centre, and Eglinton Avenue.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I don't know the answer to that, but excessive property expropriation would only further inflate costs. Especially in the current market.

It would be nice to see the idea at least considered. Tunnelling is very expensive and is still likely more expensive than expropriation.

We should've done the same with TYSSE too. There's no need for these expensive tunnels

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The alignment is terrible. Period. The new alignment takes in a more efficient central route & brings in more commuters. The RT alignment through industrial lands is a joke & just one of many reasons we don't want the SLRT

The route doesn't matter. Only the locations go the stations matters. The SLRT staton location puts significantly more people within walking distance and has significantly more developable land than the SSE stations.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

What's your basis for that?

The infamous September 2013 city report, estimated that the ridership for building subway along the RT alignment to Sheppard was higher than using the McCowan alignment to Sheppard. The catch was, using the existing RT alignment would have cost $4.1 to $4.3 billion rather than $3.6 billion for the McCowan alignment.

Interesting. I wasn't aware of that.

Wasn't the McCowan alignment at grade, following the same route as the SRT? It so, $4.1 Billion sounds awfully expensive for at grade rapid transit.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Really? As far as im aware this is what's being built. The alternative is only wanted from those that would never use it & care about feeding issue within their own backyard. 9700 riders is actually good compared to other subway lines in this City.

Really? The only subway with ridership that low is the Sheppard Line.

In comparison, Line 1 moves about 30,000 and Line 2 is somewhere between 20 and 25,000 (I can't recall exactly, but it's in the YRNS)

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

1.)Its great the SLRT has more stations. But were are those stations? 2 are in the middle of industrial land which could soon be covered by Smarttrack/GO RER. What about Central East and Southeast residents?

First of all, Smarttrack/GO RER isn't supposed to make all the stops, like you've said - and why, bus routes can't feed into these stations? You are moving the route east by 1km - don't make it sound as if it will suddenly change the ridership picture completely if you are playing the whole mode-change aspect as the raison d'etre.

2.)Where is this low density you speak of? Scarborough is a mix bag of low/medium & high in throughout. Aside from losing Markham/Sheppard I don't see any benefit to the alignment. Another stop on Eglinton will do great & McCowan/Sheppard has a fair amount of commercial land which should provide solid future development

Do you really want to argue with me the redevelopability of this:

versus this:

AoD

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

To be fair, this isn't exactly true. The single-detached dominance doesn't really start until north of the Pringdale ravine. If you just literally meant along McCowan itself, then yes, from Lawrence to Ellesmere, except for the hospital, is basically only single-family homes.

If you want to talk about rezoning for redevelopment, the SRT corridor is not exactly a slam dunk, because any motion to rezone industrial employment lands is far from guaranteed to pass.

The two key redevelopment zones in the area, IMO, are Scarborough City Centre, and Eglinton Avenue.

In the long run, the benefits of redeveloping that stretch of employment lands - be it densification or rezoning more than outweighs whatever benefit that short stretch of Eglinton can offer.

AoD

 

[coffey1]

To be fair, this isn't exactly true. The single-detached dominance doesn't really start until north of the Pringdale ravine. If you just literally meant along McCowan itself, then yes, from Lawrence to Ellesmere, except for the hospital, is basically only single-family homes.

If you want to talk about rezoning for redevelopment, the SRT corridor is not exactly a slam dunk, because any motion to rezone industrial employment lands is far from guaranteed to pass.

The two key redevelopment zones in the area, IMO, are Scarborough City Centre, and Eglinton Avenue.

We should be focusing on where the stops are along the route not what's along the route itself. This also goes for the Bellamy alignment. The Toronto Star puts a nice picture of a tree lined street to help their ridiculous narrative. But the actually stop location at Eglinton is a really solid development area, closer to Kingston & Eglinton & connects to the GO station. This single family home nonsense has no merit.

 

[wopchop]

It would be nice to see the idea at least considered. Tunnelling is very expensive and is still likely more expensive than expropriation.

We should've done the same with TYSSE too. There's no need for these expensive tunnels

Wasn't the McCowan alignment at grade, following the same route as the SRT? It so, $4.1 Billion sounds awfully expensive for at grade rapid transit.

You are too easily writing off the high cost by focusing on the "at grade" part. There are numerous reasons that the cost would be high, which have been highlighted in this thread in the past. Such as;

1) Scarborough RT shutdown & associated temporary busing costs
2) Potential corridor constraints due to sharing space with GO RER / SmartTrack
3) More complicated construction staging due to Stouffville Corridor Expansion by GO Transit
4) Modifications to Kennedy station

Sure, in general, at grade rapid transit is likely cheaper than below-ground rapid transit. But that isn't always true. There are certainly factors that need to be examined for a true and thorough accounting of costs, outside of that simplistic view. The fact is, trying to build along the SRT corridor was found to be more expensive than tunnelling the McCowan Corridor due to all the above reasons.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

You are too easily writing off the high cost by focusing on the "at grade" part. There are numerous reasons that the cost would be high, which have been highlighted in this thread in the past. Such as;

1) Scarborough RT shutdown & associated temporary busing costs
2) Potential corridor constraints due to sharing space with GO RER / SmartTrack
3) More complicated construction staging due to Stouffville Corridor Expansion by GO Transit
4) Modifications to Kennedy station

Sure, in general, at grade rapid transit is likely cheaper than below-ground rapid transit. But that isn't always true. There are certainly factors that need to be examined for a true and thorough accounting of costs, outside of that simplistic view.

I knew the Kennedy modification were expensive, but I'm surprised it managed to inflate the cost to $4.1 Billoon. Perhaps at grade via McCowan corridor would be cheaper.