Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[CDL.TO]

Really wish they would reconsider the alignment that follows the current SRT route.

It would cut construction costs in half (or even less!) and make a "undercapacity" subway much more justifiable.

Do people want a subway into the centre of Scarborough, or are they demanding only the best and therefore most expensive subway into the centre of Scarborough?

 

[nfitz]

I thought TTC had trashed that one, because of the curves and the need to completely move Kennedy station

 

[datamouse]

I still can't figure out why the master agreement hasn't been amended.

 

[CDL.TO]

I thought TTC had trashed that one, because of the curves and the need to completely move Kennedy station

They had, but that's the point of my complaint. People expect "the best" option, not that which can meet our needs at the lowest possible price.

They didn't say it wasn't workable. It's just not "optimal". The fact that it was a fraction of the cost of the alternatives wasn't even considered.

 

[nfitz]

They had, but that's the point of my complaint. People expect "the best" option, not that which can meet our needs at the lowest possible price.

They didn't say it wasn't workable. It's just not "optimal". The fact that it was a fraction of the cost of the alternatives wasn't even considered.

It was also a bit stronger than not optimal.

Also pricing was considered. Both options were $1.9 billion to Scarborough Centre, while the existing (and proposed) SRT alignment to Sheppard was $2.9 billion compared to $2.5 billion along McCowan. See the September 25, 2013 TTC report.

I'm not sure why you are saying it was a fraction of the cost, and they didn't price it.

 

[CDL.TO]

Firstly, I never claimed that they didn't price it. I'm claiming that costs don't factor into their decisions enough.

Thanks for reminding me of that presentation. Frankly, I'm skeptical about those figures. The idea that a whole new tunnelled alignment would cost the same as repurposing an existing surface alignment seems highly questionable and just doesn't pass the sniff test. Revisions to the cost estimate for the McCowan alignment that have occurred since that presentation was made seem to justify my skepticism... these days no one is claiming that the Scarborough subway is going to cost only $1.9b.

Sure, if building a 5.9km tunnel with two underground stations only costs $100m more than reusing an existing surface alignment, I agree that the tunnel makes more sense.

And let's not forget that the province pretty much offered to pay for a subway extension on the existing alignment (through Glen Murray), and Toronto rejected that.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

The revisions to the cost estimate is the biggest white elephant in the room, especially after Keesmat's come out and said they didn't really properly study the option.

How high will this subway's costs go?

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The SRT alignment would be much easier to swallow. For sure. The subway will likely hit 4 billion at least by the end of the year. They should consider switching to the SRT alignment and use the rest of the money for other things. Like bringing the crosstown to the airport.

 

[sixrings]

In the west why not convert the UP express to LRT, then the middle section would be underground LRT on Eglinton, then above ground LRT from Don mills to Kennedy and then in the east convert the SRT to LRT which would make one giant grade separated LRT line.

 

[nfitz]

And let's not forget that the province pretty much offered to pay for a subway extension on the existing alignment (through Glen Murray), and Toronto rejected that.

I don't believe the province ever offered more than the current offer. Which is the same as they were offering for the LRT.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Why was at grade rapid transit expansion via property expropriation along the SSE corridor not considered? We did this with Spadina Line, Line 2 extension to Kennedy and downtown with our Yonge Line project. By all accounts those projects were incredibly successful.

 

[wopchop]

Why was at grade rapid transit expansion via property expropriation along the SSE corridor not considered? We did this with Spadina Line, Line 2 extension to Kennedy and downtown with our Yonge Line project. By all accounts those projects were incredibly successful.

I don't know the answer to that, but excessive property expropriation would only further inflate costs. Especially in the current market.

 

[coffey1]

The SRT alignment would be much easier to swallow. For sure. The subway will likely hit 4 billion at least by the end of the year. They should consider switching to the SRT alignment and use the rest of the money for other things. Like bringing the crosstown to the airport.

The alignment is terrible. Period. The new alignment takes in a more efficient central route & brings in more commuters. The RT alignment through industrial lands is a joke & just one of many reasons we don't want the SLRT

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The alignment is terrible. Period. The new alignment takes in a more efficient central route & brings in more commuters. The RT alignment through industrial lands is a joke & just one of many reasons we don't want the SLRT

The new alignment is the reason why this thing is not getting built. 4 billion for 9700 riders is ridiculous.

 

[nfitz]

The alignment is terrible. Period. The new alignment takes in a more efficient central route & brings in more commuters. The RT alignment through industrial lands is a joke & just one of many reasons we don't want the SLRT

What's your basis for that?

The infamous September 2013 city report, estimated that the ridership for building subway along the RT alignment to Sheppard was higher than using the McCowan alignment to Sheppard. The catch was, using the existing RT alignment would have cost $4.1 to $4.3 billion rather than $3.6 billion for the McCowan alignment.