TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[Dan416]

And no, I'm not kidding. The number one reason I liked the SELRT is that it would end any misguided extension attempts for Sheppard. Most importantly, it would finally silence its advocates - particularly the SOS group and their trolling members I see on the Globe, Star, and Sun.

That's the number one reason I disliked Transit City and it's irrational, misguided attempt to kill the Sheppard Subway forever.

Killing Transit City is just about the only Ford decision I have agreed with. Transit City, and especially the SELRT, deserved to die.

That said, what we're getting on Eglinton now is pretty much the worst of both worlds (subway and LRT). It's just as expensive as a subway because now it's underground, but then it's costing more because LRT rolling stock costs more than subway rolling stock, and it has less capacity.

I sincerely hope some more Sheppard subway stations get built just to piss off critics such as yourself. I don't even care about Sheppard that much, and have stated many times that the DRL is the #1 priority right now. But just the fact that it would annoy you people would be a victory in and of itself.

 

[44 North]

I'm sure there are many that want Sheppard built to spite the "lefty champagne downtowners and their DRL". I've read the comments on the Sun and Star. That sentiment is quite prevalent.

But I hope they realize that their selfishness will result in city-wide $8 fares to cover Sheppard's operating losses.

Steeles and Finch are 10km and 8km from Eglinton respectively. Distance from Eglinton to Lake Ontario (via Yonge), around 7km. See the comparison?
Also the route hardly serves any place near 401 except at STC and the Airport area.

So what, our system already has stops at York Mills and Yorkdale. Added to a complete Eglinton, that's four hub stations along key points of the 401. Seriously, how many important destinations requiring subways exist along the 401? Answer, not many. The proposition from Sheppard advocates was to relieve the 401, not be a replacement for it. Should we be building subways abutting the DVP and 427, too?

How many drivers using the 401 have their origin and destination points - within the city of Toronto - next to the highway? Answer: Not many. And definitely not enough to warrant a subway line.

 

[44 North]

The last three mayors of Toronto up to and including Ford all advocated for building/extending the Sheppard subway.

Mayors are not transit experts.

Lastman - gee, I wonder how he got Sheppard started in North York when all other proposed lines were cancelled. It's all politics.
Miller - he wanted to finish the stubway. Then actual experts explained that it is a costly money pit unworthy of extending.
Ford - an idiot. He wants it built because "the people have spoken". Have the people spoken? No. Did we have a referendum about extending Sheppard? No.

 

[Rainforest]

Should we be building subways abutting the DVP and 427, too?

Abutting the DVP - for sure. That's called DRL East subway It won't run literally next to DVP, but rather close to it.

427 - no; that route has no destinations and little potential for transfers.

How many drivers using the 401 have their origin and destination points - within the city of Toronto - next to the highway? Answer: Not many. And definitely not enough to warrant a subway line.

If the destination is on the subway but the origin is not, some of the riders will still choose transit.

 

[Rainforest]

Mayors are not transit experts.

Lastman - gee, I wonder how he got Sheppard started in North York when all other proposed lines were cancelled. It's all politics.
Miller - he wanted to finish the stubway. Then actual experts explained that it is a costly money pit unworthy of extending.
Ford - an idiot. He wants it built because "the people have spoken". Have the people spoken? No. Did we have a referendum about extending Sheppard? No.

Miller is a smart guy; I rank him higher than Lastman and certainly higher than Ford. However, Miller's decisions were not free of politics, too. He supported the all-LRT plan partly to limit arguments about technology in each corridor, rather than because LRT was the best choice everywhere.

Also, it should be noted that the costs of LRT plan initially given to Miller were seriously lowballed. At $555 million (the original cost forecast for SELRT), it would be a bargain comparted to subway extension. But at the later $1.2 B tag, it becomes comparable to some subway-based options (I mean a partial subway extension rather than an attempt to build the whole thing at once).

 

[gweed123]

My views on the debate between CC and 44 North have changed recently. My 2 main beefs with the SELRT proposal were the dumb transfer at Don Mills, and the local design of the line that was meant to serve a long haul function in addition to a local function. The stops were too far apart for a good local service, but too close together for a good long haul service.

An LRT on Sheppard isn't going to help the 401 at all. What northern Toronto needs are 2 services: 1) A continuous crosstown line that serves local demand along a densely populated corridor, and b) an express service with very few stops with a speed that can actually compete with the 401.

Having both of these options along one corridor won't work (express/local options would be über expensive). What I think should happen is a continuous crosstown LRT along Sheppard (and I stress the continuous part, which means converting the existing subway to LRT). Underground from Victoria Park to just west of Downsview Stn, and in-median for the rest. One branch would run to STC via McCowan, and the LRT would end in the west at Humber College.

The second part is an express BRT through the Finch Hydro corridor. This would serve the express nature. It would also begin at STC, use the same ROW built for the LRT along McCowan to get up to FHC, then run the whole way across and connect with the Mississauga Transitway.

Each line has a clear purpose, and would be designed to cater best to that purpose. Realistically, you could likely build most of these lines for the same cost as building the Sheppard subway from Downsview to STC.

That's just my two cents.

 

[nfitz]

That's the number one reason I disliked Transit City and it's irrational, misguided attempt to kill the Sheppard Subway forever.

What a bizarre and totally unfounded claim. You think they thought up an 8-line transit network simply to kill a poorly planned subway line that only coincided with Transit City for less than 5 km of the 120 km network?

That's tin-foil hat territory!

 

[11th]

So what, our system already has stops at York Mills and Yorkdale. Added to a complete Eglinton, that's four hub stations along key points of the 401. Seriously, how many important destinations requiring subways exist along the 401? Answer, not many. The proposition from Sheppard advocates was to relieve the 401, not be a replacement for it. Should we be building subways abutting the DVP and 427, too?

How many drivers using the 401 have their origin and destination points - within the city of Toronto - next to the highway? Answer: Not many. And definitely not enough to warrant a subway line.

You were saying Eglinton Crosstown as a reliver to 401, yet you've confused yourself by mentioning Yorkdale and York Mills, both of wich are located on north-south subway lines. Since when does the 401 runs north-south? As for your "important destinations" comment, whether a destination is important or not is subjective. One might see the Danforth as a destination, others Yorkdale, or maybe a mall catered to certain minority groups.

And you are correct, not many drivers using the 401 have their origin and destination points next to the highway. People use the 401 as part of their route to get to their destinations, that is why a rapid transit route built right next to (or in-median as some have suggested) the 401 is not as wise a routing as on an arterial such as Sheppard.

 

[44 North]

You were saying Eglinton Crosstown as a reliver to 401, yet you've confused yourself by mentioning Yorkdale and York Mills, both of wich are located on north-south subway lines. Since when does the 401 runs north-south?

I didn't confuse myself. I was referring to how hub station at points along the 401 - as part of our subway network - work equally well at providing "relief" as a Sheppard line paralleling the 401. This is for the reason that the majority of origin/destination points for 401 users are not along the highway.

If Sheppard is extended in either direction; 90% of 401 users who instead opt to use Sheppard will still end up transferring onto a N/S route at some point on their trip.

edit: Whereas a completed Eglinton/S(L)RT - with stops at 401/427 and STC - increases the breadth of this "relief" more than Sheppard. The added bonus being that it's actually planned and u/c.

*With that being said, I'm still opposed to "park 'n' ride" subway stops.

 

[Justin10000]

That's the number one reason I disliked Transit City and it's irrational, misguided attempt to kill the Sheppard Subway forever.

You really believe Transit City was an attempt to kill the Sheppard Subway line?

Will I get suspended for calling CC kookoo for cocoa puffs?

 

[Chuck]

The 401 is only busy because it's all we've got. It would be equally busy if it ran along St. Clair or highway 7 becaus most commuters live miles to the north or south. It's foolish to believe that building a transit line parallel to the 401 would act as a relief - the two modes are mutually exclusive.

The best reliever for the 401 woud be a complete network of subway, commuter rail, and feeder LRT lines serving the biggest subrban offce parks and residential areas. The 401 will only be relieved when the city wide transit system is so good, that anyone can get anywhere conveniently by transit. No single line, even one running along Sheppard, is capable of that.

 

[andrewpmk]

The 401 is only busy because it's all we've got. It would be equally busy if it ran along St. Clair or highway 7 becaus most commuters live miles to the north or south. It's foolish to believe that building a transit line parallel to the 401 would act as a relief - the two modes are mutually exclusive.

The best reliever for the 401 woud be a complete network of subway, commuter rail, and feeder LRT lines serving the biggest subrban offce parks and residential areas. The 401 will only be relieved when the city wide transit system is so good, that anyone can get anywhere conveniently by transit. No single line, even one running along Sheppard, is capable of that.

So we should plan to build more than one line then. There are a number of routes that could relieve the 401 and other east west highways in the GTA: several of the GO lines (Lakeshore, Milton and Georgetown), the CP line via Summerhill, the Eglinton line, the Sheppard line, the Finch hydro corridor, and the 407 Transitway. If we cannot afford the Sheppard line extension because it is too expensive, I think that it is best to leave it alone rather than build an inadequate LRT line.

 

[Dan416]

My views on the debate between CC and 44 North have changed recently. My 2 main beefs with the SELRT proposal were the dumb transfer at Don Mills, and the local design of the line that was meant to serve a long haul function in addition to a local function. The stops were too far apart for a good local service, but too close together for a good long haul service.

An LRT on Sheppard isn't going to help the 401 at all. What northern Toronto needs are 2 services: 1) A continuous crosstown line that serves local demand along a densely populated corridor, and b) an express service with very few stops with a speed that can actually compete with the 401.

Having both of these options along one corridor won't work (express/local options would be über expensive). What I think should happen is a continuous crosstown LRT along Sheppard (and I stress the continuous part, which means converting the existing subway to LRT). Underground from Victoria Park to just west of Downsview Stn, and in-median for the rest. One branch would run to STC via McCowan, and the LRT would end in the west at Humber College.

The second part is an express BRT through the Finch Hydro corridor. This would serve the express nature. It would also begin at STC, use the same ROW built for the LRT along McCowan to get up to FHC, then run the whole way across and connect with the Mississauga Transitway.

Each line has a clear purpose, and would be designed to cater best to that purpose. Realistically, you could likely build most of these lines for the same cost as building the Sheppard subway from Downsview to STC.

That's just my two cents.

I think any position that recommends converting the Sheppard subway to LRT is doomed to failure and not worth discussing. I'd rather build a station every five years than waste money converting it. That was and is a seriously boneheaded idea.

Another boneheaded idea is converting the SRT to LRT rather than just extending the Danforth subway line. But alas, this city has fallen victim to poor planning and The Cheapening far too often. For a bit more money, we could just run the SRT into the ground while building a subway extension to STC, and avoid any shutdown.

Similarly, converting the Sheppard subway to LRT would require a lot of money and a lengthy shutdown. You think the people on Sheppard are going to like that? And for what benefit?

All Sheppard is ever going to need is to connect Downsview/Sheppard West and STC. Beyond that, buses are fine.

In concert with an LRT along Finch (East and West) you'd have the north end of the city very well covered by transit. I think BRT along Finch is silly. I don't know if I'd advocate a BRT anywhere in Toronto, minus maybe along the 427.

 

[rbt]

I think any position that recommends converting the Sheppard subway to LRT is doomed to failure and not worth discussing. I'd rather build a station every fifteen to twenty years than waste money converting it. That was and is a seriously boneheaded idea.

Fixed that for you. The best case for a single station extension to Victoria Park is 2017, 15 years after Sheppard opened.

Precedence for the 15 to 20 year timeline is seen on Spadina line. Wilson was 1978, Downsview was 1996 (18 years) and Vaughan will be about 2015 (19 years) though obviously more than a single station. I'd put $100 on Sheppard being completed to SCC around 2040, long after I retire (hopefully).

 

[noctis]

Fixed that for you. The best case for a single station extension to Victoria Park is 2017, 15 years after Sheppard opened.

Precedence for the 15 to 20 year timeline is seen on Spadina line. Wilson was 1978, Downsview was 1996 (18 years) and Vaughan will be about 2015 (19 years) though obviously more than a single station. I'd put $100 on Sheppard being completed to SCC around 2040, long after I retire (hopefully).

$200 say 2050...i'll be 63 by then... O_O