TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[Dan416]

nfitz I have no idea why you're stating the DRL is funded. It's not. A plan is not funding. If the DRL were funded it'd be under construction.

 

[nfitz]

nfitz I have no idea why you're stating the DRL is funded.

I didn't say it was funded. I said the province had promised to pick up the tab. I'm not sure where all this head-scratching is coming from. You all know I'm referring to the Metrolinx Big Move.

If the DRL were funded it'd be under construction.

The SRT rebuild is funded ... but I don't see any construction.

 

[Platform 27]

The provincial government is providing some funding and the only reason this Sabora Line is going into Vaughan is just that - political and benefitting Sabora's developer friends who must have donated who knows how much money to Sabora. You actually think if the TTC had no outside influence they would actually extend the line to Vaughan or even past Wilson?

The TTC's last round of in-house subway expansion priority-setting was carried out in the early 2000s (prior to Sorbara being in government) and it flagged getting Sheppard east to Vic Park and Spadina extended towards York U or Vaughan as the network's top priorities. (Ahead, incidentally, of a rebooted Eglinton West subway, a Yonge extension, a Sheppard West extension, a Bloor-Danforth extension to Sherway Gardens or anywhere in Mississauga, or the SRT to Malvern.)

We can crap all over the RTES being a blinkered subway-driven study making only the most rudimentary attempt at true cost-benefit analysis. (And, I imagine, a great many transportation planners would agree it was.) But the fact remains it was a TTC report written by TTC consultants under the supervision of TTC management that set the wheels in motion towards the Spadina extension, and kept the flame alive on a Sheppard extension amongst the subwayati while they shuddered through the evil night of LRT.

 

[Rainforest]

The TTC started to loose money when they were mandated to provide service to the inner suburbs from the old Metro level government that existed in Toronto.

That's true; but the main contribution to that loss probably was the expansion of suburban bus service.

 

[Chuck]

hehe. you should know that I was exaggerating. My point is places north of Sheppard are suburban by nature and should be fine with an LRT. wasting money on undergrounds on their sparse area doesn't make sense. underground subway is only needed for south of eglington area, because that's called a city.

You're right when it comes to above ground versus underground, but wrong about where subways should be built. Subways should be built anywhere that heavy rail is required, but where there is no access to an existing heavy rail line. If it makes more sense geographically, I see nothing wrong with extending an existing subway line an extra 20 kilometres deeper into the suburbs, running trains once every 15 minutes, and placing stations 5 km apart. If this is more economical than extending a rail line to a new area, then definitely so be it!

I think you're the one living in the dream world here. York Region needs to spend money to bring their local bus services up to a level approaching the TTC before they worry their little selves about HRT. After that, they can pony up the property taxes needed to support the operating and capital budget too.

Comments like these are just silly. You make it sound like there will be subways crisscrossing all four corners of York Region. In reality, all that York Region is asking for is 6 km. Less than 1% of its landmass would be within 1 km of the nearest subway station.

 

[44 North]

The Grid has mapped all the buildings under-construction in Toronto. http://www.thegridto.com/images/Map.html

I know the pro-Sheppard crowd likes to use Scarborough Centre as a reason for an extension. How it's "the next downtown", and "the amount of construction is crazy" yadda yadda. On the contrary. There are 3 (THREE!) buildings being built. All solely residential. Downsview is more of a hub of activity. Yes, the Sheppard stub is spurring activity. But so is St Clair's ROW.

Looking at the map, it's baffling why Eglinton is ahead of a DRL.

 

[Dan416]

View attachment 8021

The Grid has mapped all the buildings under-construction in Toronto. http://www.thegridto.com/images/Map.html

I know the pro-Sheppard crowd likes to use Scarborough Centre as a reason for an extension. How it's "the next downtown", and "the amount of construction is crazy" yadda yadda. On the contrary. There are 3 (THREE!) buildings being built. All solely residential. Downsview is more of a hub of activity. Yes, the Sheppard stub is spurring activity. But so is St Clair's ROW.

Looking at the map, it's baffling why Eglinton is ahead of a DRL.

Why are you only counting the buildings U/C at STC? What about all the ones on Sheppard? Why are you misleading us?

 

[44 North]

The growth over the next 1-2 years gives a sufficient idea of what's been happening over the last 5-10.

What I like about this map is how it shows that subways don't necessarily have to be a precursor to development. Look at all the highrises u/c in Toronto's downtown that aren't near a subway line. Or along Humber Bay. Clearly streetcars are more than sufficient at being catalysts for development. Light rail: it'd be an even stronger catalyst.

IMO, half the pro-Sheppard argument is based on real estate-related issues. I think this map proves that subways are not the be-all and end-all for providing a means for redevelopment.

 

[gweed123]

The growth over the next 1-2 years gives a sufficient idea of what's been happening over the last 5-10.

What I like about this map is how it shows that subways don't necessarily have to be a precursor to development. Look at all the highrises u/c in Toronto's downtown that aren't near a subway line. Or along Humber Bay. Clearly streetcars are more than sufficient at being catalysts for development. Light rail: it'd be an even stronger catalyst.

IMO, half the pro-Sheppard argument is based on real estate-related issues. I think this map proves that subways are not the be-all and end-all for providing a means for redevelopment.

While I agree with the premise in theory, I think that a lot of the condo construction in downtown and in other areas is linked more to the popularity of the neighbourhoods themselves than to the streetcars. I'm not saying the streetcars aren't an asset, but when you're buying into a place like Humber Bay, you aren't buying into it for the 40 minutes it takes to get downtown by streetcar, you're buying it for the prestige and for the location. I'd even venture to say that the people who are buying around the Humber Bay are just as likely to use the Gardiner to get downtown as the are the 501.

Granted there will be some exceptions though. I think many people overlook the fact that there are many neighbourhoods that have streetcars that pass through them that still are, or were until very recently, in a pretty unfavourable state. Is the streetcar to blame for that? Of course not. So why credit the streetcar's potential influence when a neighbourhood becomes "in", but dismiss it when the neighbourhood becomes "out"?

All I'm saying is there are a tonne of other external factors that cause a neighbourhood to grow, regentrify, or decline. The streetcar is merely one aspect of the equation, and not a main aspect at that. Having said that though, the higher the order of transit, the bigger of an impact on the neighbourhood it plays. Streetcar is likely to have a greater impact on the neighbourhood than bus. LRT more than streetcar. Subway more than LRT. You can point to a few neighbourhoods that can be labelled as "out" along subway lines, but they are generally few and far between.

 

[drum118]

That's true; but the main contribution to that loss probably was the expansion of suburban bus service.

TTC Lost money the day the government removed the zone fare in 1970's.

Adding the expansion of suburban bus service did add to TTC bottom line, but not that much compare to the lost of the zone fare.

As long as political interference get in the way of building the right system to the right place, TTC will loose tons of money because of it. You and I are on the hock for these political interference.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

. When i actually first saw you write Yprk is building a subway I thought I must have seen missed something. York Region is not building that subway , its the TTc (Toronto). The provincial government is providing some funding and the only reason this Sabora Line is going into Vaughan is just that - political and benefitting Sabora's developer friends who must have donated who knows how much money to Sabora. You actually think if the TTC had no outside influence they would actually extend the line to Vaughan or even past Wilson? The TTC started to loose money when they were mandated to provide service to the inner suburbs from the old Metro level government that existed in Toronto.

Every sentence here is wrong - except the part where you say you thought you were missing something.
I said York is building a BRT, and they are.
The Spadina extension is split 3 ways - federal/municipal/provincial. York Region is paying it's share of the municipal costs, ie the municipal share of everything north of Steeles.
I also said that if Yonge was approved, they would similarly be paying their own share.
The rest of what you're going on about is somewhere between realpolitik and conspiracy theories involving a fictional person named "Sabora."
Fact is, a subway to York U has been talked about forever.
The province designated Jane/Hwy 7 as an urban growth centre and plans to build BRT along Hwy 407. York Region lobbied, successfully, to convince the province it made little sense to have a 2 km gap between the subway and the transit hub to the north.

 

[sulkth]

Hi all,
I'm sorta new to UT but I'm interested in transit topics.

Here's my idea for how we should expand Sheppard. Ideally it should continue westward, into Rexdale along Albion Road ending at Humber College. I know it's a bit of a pipe dream, but I feel that if this were built, it would actually provide some incentive for re-development in Northern Etobicoke. Rexdale is suffering from some serious urban decay. This area is plagued by overcrowding on buses and long ride times from the subway.

Realistically, I can't see this being built anytime soon. Transit expansion money is tied up in other projects right now.

We also can't think of any expansion on Sheppard until we resolve the problem that the Yonge Line has reached capacity during rush hour.

http://i.imgur.com/Tn6ha.png

 

[ibhattac]

Transit City spoke of a Jane LRT, and a Etobicoke-Finch West LRT. Any thoughts on the merits of those versus extending the Sheppard westward and closing the loop?

 

[accura407]

Hi all,
I'm sorta new to UT but I'm interested in transit topics.

Here's my idea for how we should expand Sheppard. Ideally it should continue westward, into Rexdale along Albion Road ending at Humber College. I know it's a bit of a pipe dream, but I feel that if this were built, it would actually provide some incentive for re-development in Northern Etobicoke. Rexdale is suffering from some serious urban decay. This area is plagued by overcrowding on buses and long ride times from the subway.

Realistically, I can't see this being built anytime soon. Transit expansion money is tied up in other projects right now.

We also can't think of any expansion on Sheppard until we resolve the problem that the Yonge Line has reached capacity during rush hour.

http://i.imgur.com/Tn6ha.png

Although your map is a bit off (your line ends @ Albion and Martin Grove instead of Humber College) if a subway line like that went up Albion then followed Finch down to Humber College, you have solved literally all of North Etobicoke's transit problems!

Suddenly intersecting buses along Islington, Kipling, and Martin Grove can dump passengers onto this line rather than continuing down to Bloor or Eglinton...

Also since the road network connectivity sucks because of the Humber River, the subway would actually provide better speeds than driving for people to go from Etobicoke into North York. Also the portion between Weston and Albion can be an outdoor bridge to cross the large valley

If you build this line, then there will never ever be a need for a Finch LRT period. Because it would serve the western end of Finch quite well...

I think it is worth doing a serious study on at least to see what kind of ridership levels this would bring in...

 

[gweed123]

Hi all,
I'm sorta new to UT but I'm interested in transit topics.

Here's my idea for how we should expand Sheppard. Ideally it should continue westward, into Rexdale along Albion Road ending at Humber College. I know it's a bit of a pipe dream, but I feel that if this were built, it would actually provide some incentive for re-development in Northern Etobicoke. Rexdale is suffering from some serious urban decay. This area is plagued by overcrowding on buses and long ride times from the subway.

Realistically, I can't see this being built anytime soon. Transit expansion money is tied up in other projects right now.

We also can't think of any expansion on Sheppard until we resolve the problem that the Yonge Line has reached capacity during rush hour.

Realistically, the Finch West LRT will serve many of the same functions, at a fraction of the cost. I agree completely that Rexdale needs redevelopment, but there are much better ways that money can be spent than on a subway that realistically will be pretty under-used, especially when the Spadina extension opens.