TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[kkgg7]

What isn't subjective is that work (and maybe school a distant second) are the biggest drivers of transit demand. Entertainment and shopping are far behind. If you don't build it where it satisfies a work-related demand, it likely won't ever be anything other than a money pit.

This is why I've always thought ideas like building HRT along the rails to serve the Distillery, MTCC, SkyDome/CN Tower, BMO Field/Exhibition Place is rather stupid.

they are not stupid. they just shouldn't be given priority too.
that being said, downtown is still the biggest destination for work, i suppose, and therefore a downtown relief line is the most important thing right now. to construct anything that brings people to the at-capacity yonge line is rather stupid in my opinion. build something to connect the inner suburbs directed to the Bay/King or Bay/King area should be prioritized. Let me emphasize again, the yonge line should NOT be extended, or connected with a new line in its non-downtown part.

I don't doubt there are many jobs in the suburbs too, however it makes little sense to build something connecting two suburbs because the density is not there. You have some jobs here and there, and you have residential areas here and there, and neither congregates large number of densely living people. On the other hand, I double many downtown residents would work in the suburbs as chances are they would have already moved closed to their work instead of staying in expensive downtown.

 

[nfitz]

On the other hand, I double many downtown residents would work in the suburbs as chances are they would have already moved closed to their work instead of staying in expensive downtown.

And yet the northbound DVP and westbound Gardiner in rush-hour has deteriorated significantly in the last 10 to 20 years. These are forecast to get much worse in the next 20 years. There's a lot of new housing downtown, and some are commuting out to 905.

There's a lot of people out there who'd prefer to live in downtown, than out in the suburbs; but seem okay to drive out there to work. I know people who do this - heck, I used to do this to some extent (though only up to Sheppard ... commuting up to Steeles would be beyond my personal breaking point ...

 

[Chuck]

In the morning at least, outbound DVP and Gardiner are worse than inbound. The same is also true in the evening though, which leads me to believe this has more to do with highway design than traffic volume.

This all makes one wonder if the notion of mixed use development in the suburbs is a good idea - the market seems to demanding more employment downtown than in the suburbs right now, at least for office jobs. Maybe we should just let it be, since downtown is the easiest to connect to the suburbs by transit.

 

[Rainforest]

This all makes one wonder if the notion of mixed use development in the suburbs is a good idea - the market seems to demanding more employment downtown than in the suburbs right now, at least for office jobs. Maybe we should just let it be, since downtown is the easiest to connect to the suburbs by transit.

Although downtown is and will remain the dominant employment node, adding some jobs at secondary hubs has, potentially, two advantages: better utilization of the counterpeak capacity, and shorter commute times for people who work there.

The above should be balanced against the difficulty of serving more scattered commute patterns, therefore not every suburban node is a good candidate to spur office jobs.

Perhaps the most effective secondary nodes are not in suburbs but rather in "midtown": Yonge/Sheppard/Finch, Yonge/Eglinton, and Dundas/Bloor.

 

[nfitz]

In the morning at least, outbound DVP and Gardiner are worse than inbound.

I don't think that's true. I live not far from where the DVP and Gardiner meet, so I use both outbound in morning rush from time to time. Gardiner isn't that bad, though slows around Rogers. And the DVP does slow from south of Eglinton to north of Lawrence. But both seem far more congested in the other direction.

 

[Tuscani01]

I don't think that's true. I live not far from where the DVP and Gardiner meet, so I use both outbound in morning rush from time to time. Gardiner isn't that bad, though slows around Rogers. And the DVP does slow from south of Eglinton to north of Lawrence. But both seem far more congested in the other direction.

Its definitely not true. It takes me 17 minutes to get from Cityplace to Don Mills/Eglinton in the morning rush hour, and slightly longer to get back to Cityplace in the evening rush hour, via the DVP. Its smooth sailing out of the city during the morning rush, and a bit heavier during the evening rush coming back into the city. No where near as busy as the opposite directions.

 

[Chuck]

Not what I find, though I mainly use the Eglinton to 401 section. The Gardiner I find to be ridiculous heading west from to the 427 in the morning.

 

[whatever]

I live in the core and commute out to the burbs regularly. The DVP is definitely way worse today than it was 5-10 years ago, but the real culprit is the single-lane exit to the 401 West. It regularly backs up down the DVP, and then all of the idiots driving up the exit lanes for the 404 and 401 East that decide to stop and wait to merge into the backed up 401 West lane at the last second cause problems all the way back to Eglinton.

 

[accura407]

I live in the core and commute out to the burbs regularly. The DVP is definitely way worse today than it was 5-10 years ago, but the real culprit is the single-lane exit to the 401 West. It regularly backs up down the DVP, and then all of the idiots driving up the exit lanes for the 404 and 401 East that decide to stop and wait to merge into the backed up 401 West lane at the last second cause problems all the way back to Eglinton.

I would estimate that approximately 60-70% of DVP's traffic problems would be solved by demolishing and rebuilding the 401/404/DVP interchange!
Make it a 4-Level Stack. Braid the Sheppard & York Mills Ramp and prevent access to them from the 401 (Use Vic Park or Leslie). Push through 4 + HOV per direction up to York Mills then 3 + HOV to Lawrence then resume to current configuration.

The difference that project, albeit expensive and disruptive, would be enormous! This city is growing leaps and bounds...fixing bottlenecks like this are important no matter how much transit you build... Funneling 8 + 2 HOV lanes into a 6 lane highway + 401 lanes was a disaster made to happen from day 1

 

[agoraflaneur]

The only point that needs to be made is: The Sheppard line cannot pay for itself - nor has it ever paid for itself, and only self interested suburbanites can justify it at all). Only a DRL can pay for itself right now. Eglinton might be able to as well. These should be our priorities.

 

[Dan416]

The only point that needs to be made is: The Sheppard line cannot pay for itself - nor has it ever paid for itself, and only self interested suburbanites can justify it at all). Only a DRL can pay for itself right now. Eglinton might be able to as well. These should be our priorities.

Has anyone ever stated otherwise?

 

[nfitz]

Its definitely not true. It takes me 17 minutes to get from Cityplace to Don Mills/Eglinton in the morning rush hour ...

Well to be fair, the AM traffic northbound on the DVP only starts to slow down a bit south of Eglinton ... it's clear sailing from the Gardiner to past Don Mills Road most days. That's not true in evening rush hour of course. It's certainly getting worse going out in the AM, but it's far worse going out in the PM.

 

[11th]

The only point that needs to be made is: The Sheppard line cannot pay for itself - nor has it ever paid for itself, and only self interested suburbanites can justify it at all). Only a DRL can pay for itself right now. Eglinton might be able to as well. These should be our priorities.

Just a thought, but with the Crosstown now under construction, will the future DRL have to be built to Eglinton in order to pay for itself?

 

[GenerationW]

My issue was with Ford's press conference and him telling us "THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN"; i.e.- Transit City sucks and his plan is better. That's a pretty bold and obtuse statement to make. We had a low voter turnout, and he never received a majority. So why the hell is he telling us "we've spoken"? His election transit plan never changed, so it's not like the public was in for a surprise as to what he wanted to do with Sheppard.

Aside from the fact that Ford can't not be obtuse, the statistics don't support you. 2010 had a much larger turnout than any of the the previous four amalgamated Toronto elections, and in a race with no incumbent and with three viable candidates, Ford scored a massive victory. One can easily argue since the election he has lost a certain portion of his large mandate, but there is no argument to be made he never had one.

The only point that needs to be made is: The Sheppard line cannot pay for itself - nor has it ever paid for itself, and only self interested suburbanites can justify it at all). Only a DRL can pay for itself right now. Eglinton might be able to as well. These should be our priorities.

Which begs the question, why isn't a DRL the #1 transit priority of even one Councilor, especially of the downtown variety? Why isn't anyone screaming for this to be built right now?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

GenerationW:

Because everyone knows there is no way to pay for it without blowing budgets - and no votes to be had for promising to build it. Plus in a strange way suburban riders are the ones who will benefit most from a DRL; and it's the downtown councillors will have to tackle the headaches about routing/expropriation, construction and traffic complaints, service realignment once the DRL goes on stream, etc. Not a vote winner at a ward level.

re: All

Let's leave the RF talk in TO Issues where it belongs.

AoD