TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[EnviroTO]

What a bizarre and totally unfounded claim. You think they thought up an 8-line transit network simply to kill a poorly planned subway line that only coincided with Transit City for less than 5 km of the 120 km network?

That's tin-foil hat territory!

Especially when you consider the tracks that existed running at street level on Yonge and Bloor prior to the creation of the subway network. If the master plan was to focus on eliminating the possibility of extending the Sheppard subway it is probably the most inept method of doing so. The success of the Yonge and Bloor streetcars in building density along those streets is exactly what led to those streets being suitable for subways.

 

[Rainforest]

... What northern Toronto needs are 2 services: 1) A continuous crosstown line that serves local demand along a densely populated corridor, and b) an express service with very few stops with a speed that can actually compete with the 401.

Having both of these options along one corridor won't work (express/local options would be über expensive). What I think should happen is a continuous crosstown LRT along Sheppard (and I stress the continuous part, which means converting the existing subway to LRT). Underground from Victoria Park to just west of Downsview Stn, and in-median for the rest. One branch would run to STC via McCowan, and the LRT would end in the west at Humber College.

The second part is an express BRT through the Finch Hydro corridor. This would serve the express nature. It would also begin at STC, use the same ROW built for the LRT along McCowan to get up to FHC, then run the whole way across and connect with the Mississauga Transitway.

Each line has a clear purpose, and would be designed to cater best to that purpose. Realistically, you could likely build most of these lines for the same cost as building the Sheppard subway from Downsview to STC.

An interesting suggestion, although quite unexpected.

One potential issue is that the Finch Hydro BRT might cost quite a bit more than it seems at the first glance. First of all, you'l need bridges across Black Creek, Ross Reservoir, East Don, and two highways. To get a truly express service, you will need grade separation with all rail lines, and probably with minor streets as well. And to reach capacity above 3,000 pphpd, you will probably need elaborate stations with multiple lanes and platforms, so that buses don't wait for each other to service a station.

The requirements, and hence the cost, will be much higher than for the YorkU busway, that was build on mostly empty land and with no grade separation from the Newmarket sub.

 

[GenerationW]

Mayors are not transit experts.

Lastman - gee, I wonder how he got Sheppard started in North York when all other proposed lines were cancelled. It's all politics.
Miller - he wanted to finish the stubway. Then actual experts explained that it is a costly money pit unworthy of extending.
Ford - an idiot. He wants it built because "the people have spoken". Have the people spoken? No. Did we have a referendum about extending Sheppard? No.

Did we have a referendum on Transit City, which was a pretty large departure from previous plans? No. Did we have referendums on the two or three predecessors to Transit City? No. Will we have one on Ford's soon-or-never-to-be-released comprehensive transportation plan? No. The only referendums on transit these days are called elections, and even with those one never knows what the real plan is until and unless the winning candidate calls a press conference and tells us. It's politics.

So you're actually arguing Miller spent at least two years (04 & 05) lobbying hard for Sheppard, but then and only then decided to consult "experts" who explained the real facts to Miller after which he found the revealed truth on the road to Damascus. I don't think so. More like he was embarrassed/pissed from losing out to the combined forces of York University, Greg Sorbara, and worst of all those foreigners from York Region, and the boy wonder Adam Giambrone saw an opportunity, took a few minutes from his busy day of staining his office couch with his latest conquest, and convinced Miller of his Transit City vision. And good on Giambrone for being so shrewd. It's politics.

Ford may or may not get anything done with Sheppard (all signs point to not), but at least Sheppard has had champions in high positions of power, and, I predict, will have future champions. More than I can say for the DRL, regrettably.

 

[k10ery]

The best reliever for the 401 woud be a complete network of subway, commuter rail, and feeder LRT lines serving the biggest subrban offce parks and residential areas. The 401 will only be relieved when the city wide transit system is so good, that anyone can get anywhere conveniently by transit. No single line, even one running along Sheppard, is capable of that.

The best reliever for 401 is a toll on 401. Then people using it as a through route would have the right incentives to switch to 407 as they should.

 

[Justin10000]

The best reliever for the 401 was the 407...Right. Conservatives sold that highway.

 

[Paleo]

Do people still buy into the false notion that a complete Sheppard line will relieve traffic on the 401? Subway is too slow and most of the traffic on the 401 doesn't originate or end near the corridor so that means long bus rides for everyone before and after the slow subway ride in the middle.

 

[BMO]

Do people still buy into the false notion that a complete Sheppard line will relieve traffic on the 401? Subway is too slow and most of the traffic on the 401 doesn't originate or end near the corridor so that means long bus rides for everyone before and after the slow subway ride in the middle.

It does give people who live within the city of Toronto a much more competitive choice of transit to get across the north end of the city as opposed to today, where hopping on the 401 is the fastest way to travel from one end of the city to the other (even with the lousy traffic).

 

[Rainforest]

It does give people who live within the city of Toronto a much more competitive choice of transit to get across the north end of the city as opposed to today, where hopping on the 401 is the fastest way to travel from one end of the city to the other (even with the lousy traffic).

Agreed; it will give some (certainly not all) people currently sitting in the 401 jams a viable chance to commute fully, or at least partly, by transit.

As for the 401 congestion, it won't go away simply because any capacity released by divertion to subway will backfill.

Re: Paleo: yes the notion that a complete Sheppard line will relieve traffic on the 401 is incorrect, but that does not necessarily make the Sheppard subway useless.

 

[TOareaFan]

The best reliever for the 401 was the 407...Right. Conservatives sold that highway.

How does who owns the highway effect it as a relief route to the 401?

 

[44 North]

The only referendums on transit these days are called elections, and even with those one never knows what the real plan is until and unless the winning candidate calls a press conference and tells us. It's politics.

I agree with your argument...to an extent. My issue was with Ford's press conference and him telling us "THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN"; i.e.- Transit City sucks and his plan is better. That's a pretty bold and obtuse statement to make. We had a low voter turnout, and he never received a majority. So why the hell is he telling us "we've spoken"? His election transit plan never changed, so it's not like the public was in for a surprise as to what he wanted to do with Sheppard.

Toronto is far too large and polarized for anyone to say it's 'people have spoken'. Regardless, his transit platform had little to do with him winning.

So you're actually arguing Miller spent at least two years (04 & 05) lobbying hard for Sheppard, but then and only then decided to consult "experts" who explained the real facts to Miller after which he found the revealed truth on the road to Damascus.

In a way, yes I am loosely arguing that. I think Miller was initially under the impression that projects like Sheppard - no matter how costly or useless - were a good thing. However, his revelation “on the road to Damascus" possibly arose out of the many transit conferences he attended. I think him and Giambrone were mutually impressed with the worldwide popularity of LRT and realized that for the price of one 16km Sheppard ext, we could create 5 LRT lines.

So maybe it wasn't "experts" that swayed him, but rather LRT salesmen who dissuaded him from subways towards the popular and burgeoning transit technology that is Light Rail.

 

[44 North]

As for your "important destinations" comment, whether a destination is important or not is subjective. One might see the Danforth as a destination, others Yorkdale, or maybe a mall catered to certain minority groups.

Not really. With regards to the context of costly high order transit, a destination is "important" by:
a) how many people are going there.
b) how necessary is it to build high order transit for getting there.

There's very little subjectivity when it comes to defining 'important destinations' from a planning standpoint. If it's quantifiable, it's not subjective.

 

[k10ery]

The best reliever for the 401 was the 407...Right. Conservatives sold that highway.

Well, OK. The best thing might be to reduce 407 tolls a bit. Then people switch from 401 to 407 and everybody gets there faster - as long as there's no induced demand.

But Harris made sure that would never happen. So the best thing is a toll on 401.

 

[11th]

Not really. With regards to the context of costly high order transit, a destination is "important" by:
a) how many people are going there.
b) how necessary is it to build high order transit for getting there.

There's very little subjectivity when it comes to defining 'important destinations' from a planning standpoint. If it's quantifiable, it's not subjective.

b) is based on a), and a) is partially based on people's idea of important - work is important, entertainment is important, housing, food, and so on. Of course you can use numerical values to compare whether some destinations are important, but a more through approach (to planning) would be also to study why the numbers are there, what causes them.

 

[Paleo]

b) is based on a), and a) is partially based on people's idea of important - work is important, entertainment is important, housing, food, and so on. Of course you can use numerical values to compare whether some destinations are important, but a more through approach (to planning) would be also to study why the numbers are there, what causes them.

What isn't subjective is that work (and maybe school a distant second) are the biggest drivers of transit demand. Entertainment and shopping are far behind. If you don't build it where it satisfies a work-related demand, it likely won't ever be anything other than a money pit.

This is why I've always thought ideas like building HRT along the rails to serve the Distillery, MTCC, SkyDome/CN Tower, BMO Field/Exhibition Place is rather stupid.

 

[Tuscani01]

What isn't subjective is that work (and maybe school a distant second) are the biggest drivers of transit demand. Entertainment and shopping are far behind. If you don't build it where it satisfies a work-related demand, it likely won't ever be anything other than a money pit.

This is why I've always thought ideas like building HRT along the rails to serve the Distillery, MTCC, SkyDome/CN Tower, BMO Field/Exhibition Place is rather stupid.

Stupid, yet it does exactly what you say is important? People live in the Distillery district, and many more will be living there in the near future, same for Liberty Village, and the line would also go through CityPlace where 80% of residents do not drive to work. They would all be within minutes to downtown, where most of the people living in these two communities work. It will satisfy the work related demand, and provide more incentive for businesses to move out to Liberty Village and the Distillery District, not to mention make accessing these two neighbourhoods easier for every other Torontonian.