TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[Rainforest]

sometimes democracy becomes a means to selfish serve one's own interest, rather than to make the best decision. when the suburbs becomes increasingly larger, policies tilted toward them. how sad is that.

I envision the Yonge line may sometime extend north to New Market and Barrie, Spadina line to Brampton, Orangeville and Collingwood. and why not extend the Bloor line to Hamilton and Pickering so that all the suburbs can have a train to downtown Toronto very 5 minutes, yet the city cores still get nothing built.

I guess, the solution is to play DRL as something beneficial to both the core residents and suburbanites; after all, nobody enjoys a trip on the sardine-packed Yonge trains.

 

[Paleo]

Wow. Again...unless you're trolling, I have to assume you haven't been north of Bloor since the Diefenbaker administration. First of all, transit doesn't exist to serve TORONTONIANS. It exists to serve commuters and - this may shock you - people travel from Markham to Toronto and Toronto to Richmond Hill and Richmond Hill to Vaughan and Vaughan to Mississauga and Toronto to Pickering and....you get the idea?

It's not the City of Toronto or TTC's problem as those places contribute nothing. City of Toronto agencies serves the taxpayers of this city. Maybe those municipalities could take baby steps first and raise transit spending to the same level of Toronto first before we start digging subways to corn fields.

 

[Rainforest]

how much to get to kennedy?

5.2 km x $400 million / km, comes to about $2.1 B. Of course this is a rough estimate.

i see your financial math but i would suggest that a lrt without a transfer which so many people hate would be better then a bus that transfers onto a subway. but if you can get to kennedy for 1.9 billion i might agree that makes more sense.

For Sheppard per se, a continuous LRT might be better than subway + bus.

But subway should be more attractive for those who transfer from the N-S routes, or even some parallel E-W routes. For example with the subway terminus at Warden, half of the Finch East service can be directed to the subway, and Finch East will no longer need buses on 70 s headways.

at some point we are going to have to add in the cost of going west to dowsview tho. the longer we make the line the more lrt makes sense. all im advocating is that something substantial gets built that has the least amount of transfers versus a subway whichhas multiple transfers. its not lrt i have a boner for. its NO transfers or the least amount possible transfers I jphave a boner for.

I see your point. But on the other hand, it should be noted that the section of Sheppard West from Yonge to West Don is too narrow for a surface LRT. About 1.5 km of that line would have to be tunneled even for LRT.

 

[Solid Snake]

exactly. I don't understand the urgency of the Sheppard line,

agreed, although the western part of it would make sense

nor why an expensive underground subway is need.

Because the subway already exist and Sheppard Avenue West is too narrow

A LRT brings people equally fast, what's the issue about that?

Wrong, you'll find in Transit city study that subway is faster. You would be right if the LRT was built like in Europe' fully grade separated but don't count on the TTC or the city to do that

subways are for central locations where there is no room to build LRT tracks.

Sheppard Avenue West

I can't imagine why streets as far as Sheppard deserve an underground subway.[/QUOTE]

Why not? Sheppard-Yonge is growing at a ridiculous fast pace along with NYCC. Sheppard East is growing fast (Sheppard line stations are among the fastest increase in ridership on the subway network)

Don Mills and Sheppard is growing very fast, so is Lesly and Bayview. STC is growing as well and it is the eastern transit gate for Durham. Rapid transit makes sense. We could argue if subway is the best choice but the subway is already there

A DRL should get more priority than Sheppard.

agreed

Nor a Finch line is warranted. the Finch buses are crowded not because that street is so population, it is because it happens to be the terminus of the subway line and a Go station. If the Yonge line gets extended to Steeles, I am sure the Finch buses will be a lot less busier.

I disagree, the Steeles Bus goes to Finch Station as well. LRT is more than justified on this avenue

It is ridiculous to spend billions to dig tunnels anywhere north of St Clair (except along Yonge st). Those areas should be fine with inexpensive LRTs. You live in the suburbs, why on earth expect an underground subway?

What about Eglinton? In case you didn't know, Toronto goes all the way to Steeles.
Eglinton-Yonge, STC, NYCC don't strike me as suburbs... Linking those area by rapid transit makes sense and along the routes, the city is rezoning so that mid rises and highrises are built instead

 

[Solid Snake]

Particularly when so few people are using it already.

That line's ridership is quite decent when you compare it to other subway line around the world. TTC's standards are far from being universal. The Blue line in Montreal is far from being a failure because they never stopped adding stations in the 80's and now they plan to extend it to the East. Nowhere in the media will you here that people disagree or it's not justified. That line used to close at 11pm and have only 3 cars.

When you compare Sheppard Avenue East to Jean-Talon st./Edouard-Monpetit blvd and Queen-Mary Road, the growth on Sheppard surpasses by far what happened in Montreal. It is quite remarquable

 

[kkgg7]

What about Eglinton? In case you didn't know, Toronto goes all the way to Steeles.
Eglinton-Yonge, STC, NYCC don't strike me as suburbs... Linking those area by rapid transit makes sense and along the routes, the city is rezoning so that mid rises and highrises are built instead

I actually explicitly said "except along Yonge st". Yonge/Eg, NYC are not suburbs, but they are both around Yonge St. 10 minutes walking east or west, you are pretty much in the suburbs again, aren't you. Eglington between Avenue road and Mont Pleasant is urban, not farther away, you know what it looks like.

I am all for building LRTs, it is just given limited resources, we can't afford throw money in digging tunnel where not necessary.

I don't think Toronto will ever be urbanized enough so that area north of Eglinton will become highly dense areas (except around Yonge St, again, but only a very short stretch).

Undergrounds should be planned for area south of St Clair (if planned at all), between Dufferin and Bayview, as this is likely to be the city center in the future. In the north, not much of a chance except around Yonge St. LRTs are more than enough as it will remain sparsely populated. It is silly to say North York is dense just because a short area along a linear street have many office buildings and high rise condos.

 

[Jonny5]

I actually explicitly said "except along Yonge st". Yonge/Eg, NYC are not suburbs, but they are both around Yonge St. 10 minutes walking east or west, you are pretty much in the suburbs again, aren't you. Eglington between Avenue road and Mont Pleasant is urban, not farther away, you know what it looks like.

I do happen to know what it looks like. The question is, do you? Have you even ever actually been there or even looked on Google Streetview?

When I do a 360 pan here or here, I don't see anything that looks like this.

 

[Palma]

I do agree north of St. Clair is more suburbs but I would even give a little and say north of Eglinton for sure. It does not matter that there are condos at Sheppard and Yonge. Go east and west and what is there? Toronto may end at Steels but it does not mean its urban like up there. How can people not realize this? Do they not understand the difference between suburban and urban. There is a show on HGTV called Urban/suburban and couple trying to decide where they want to live.

 

[sixrings]

i know people who livei toronto and think anything south of the 401east of 427 and west of the dvp is "downtown" or urban. people have varied ideas of these definitions. its subjective. i think it would be helpful if instead of debating a polarizing topic of who should get what which tends to be one should get everything and the other nothing that we should say for every 1km of subway built north of eglinton the city pledges to build 3km below eglinton. this would ensure that both parties feel that they will get something built. i think alot of sheppard peoples fear is if we start the drl and it becomes a priority sheppard might not see completion until 2050.

 

[Palma]

So where is the problem? But I do like the for every 1 km ......

 

[11th]

i think alot of sheppard peoples fear is if we start the drl and it becomes a priority sheppard might not see completion until 2050.

Also, if the city can't fund a Sheppard extension, what makes one to think it can do so for DRL (which should cost significantly more) - disregarding any possible provincial/federal fundings?

 

[sixrings]

i think the city knows it needs to build some sort of transit expansion. it also knows that it may need to raise money through tolls, gas taxes or property taxes. It seems the debate is going to be where to build the line. Typically we dont have multiple lines being built at once which will cause many to think its either or. Instead of wasting time arguing over it again the city should say that it will build both at the same time or none. I figure by the time you figure how many kms it takes to get to downsview and to stc on sheppard. take that amount of kms multiply by 3 and you have at least the eastern drl.

 

[nfitz]

Also, if the city can't fund a Sheppard extension, what makes one to think it can do so for DRL (which should cost significantly more) - disregarding any possible provincial/federal fundings?

The province has already promised to pick up the tab for the DRL, and complete it by 2033. Sheppard isn't on the province's radar.

 

[Rainforest]

I do agree north of St. Clair is more suburbs but I would even give a little and say north of Eglinton for sure. It does not matter that there are condos at Sheppard and Yonge. Go east and west and what is there? Toronto may end at Steels but it does not mean its urban like up there. How can people not realize this? Do they not understand the difference between suburban and urban. There is a show on HGTV called Urban/suburban and couple trying to decide where they want to live.

Although the average density is lower in the northern part of Toironto, it has a number of very significant pockets of density (and high transit usage). Not all of them are near Yonge; think Bathurst / Steeles, Warden / Finch, or even the northern section of Kipling.

 

[Rainforest]

The province has already promised to pick up the tab for the DRL, and complete it by 2033.

Did it? Good news if so, but I've never heard of it.