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TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

nfitz said:
They are getting there, but deliveries are scheduled to continue through June 2016, if they are on schedule (not that there's much concern about that, given that none of the trains still being manufactured are needed until December 2017). The last (76th) six-car trainset )(613x cars) should arrive by early March 2016 with the 6 four-car trainsets arriving through June 2016.

Though with the 69th trainset (606x cars) being delivered this week, I'm guessing that they are a bit behind, and deliveries will drag into fall 2016. Mind you, the recent CEO report said the 70th trainset wasn't due until end of 2015, and that the 76th was due by end of March 2016, with the 82nd and final by end of June 2016. - but I'm not sure why they'd suddenly be producing 6 trainsets in 3 months, which is a bit faster than their usual rate.
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Technically the Toronto Rockets are way off their schedule as well, they were supposed to be delivering two trainsets per month according to Andy Byford's declaration a couple of years ago, but only 12 entered service in all of 2014, partly due to the strike. I think 8 have entered service so far this year.
 
drum118 said:
Damages started Aug this year and will continue until the order is cancel, BD being sold off or completed the order in 202?'s. How many free cars will TTC get for these delays??
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They've been assessing damages to the contract for almost 3 years now - as soon as the first major series of milestones were missed.

As for how many "free cars" will the TTC get? That depends entirely on the lawyers.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
Technically they are - but surely TTC benefits from this now, as they have the 60 trainsets they need to run on Line 1, and almost have the 10 extra trainsets they need to run the Spadina extension starting in December 2017. They are years from needing all the sets they have now. Bombardier delivering late simply delays payments - and delays having to activate storage for all these excess trainsets.
 
I will be very disappointed if the TTC commissioners don't start the process of looking for alternate procurement at the up-coming meeting...we are in a situation where Bombardier has over promised and under delivered too many times. The 60 extra vehicles should be given to an alternate vendor with an option for up to 200 extra vehicles depending on when/if we decide to cancel the Bombardier contract (the bidding process will take a year at which point we will have a good idea of what Bombardiers status is).

If they don't do this now, I am expecting that this winter will force the issue (more so than last year's failures) and at that point they will need to look for even shorter term fixes - busses most likely.

Is there some way that Urban Toronto could start putting pressure on the Commissioners to do something pro-active instead of waiting for Bombardier - which according to all reports is struggling both on the LRT order and as a company...

The point of commissioners is to deal with RISK....this is a huge existential RISK to the LRT system and Toronto's transit system in general....they need to do something....
 
georgevicbell said:
I will be very disappointed if the TTC commissioners don't start the process of looking for alternate procurement at the up-coming meeting...we are in a situation where Bombardier has over promised and under delivered too many times.
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Why would they at the next meeting? At the previous meeting, management reported they were confident that Bombardier was getting on track, and was now achieving the 5-day build. Given the assembly process is a ... what 2-3 month operation per car, then one has to give them time to get the 5-day build in the front end, out the back end.

Cancelling the current order and retendering is going to mean the vehicles would arrive even later. It took 8 years for the first Flexity to show up after the decision. So if things go smoothly, number 1 of a new order would arrive in 2023. How does that help?
 
Imagine if Bombardier was a government agency, the amount of crap we would have heard about how the private sector could do things better. I guess the much vaunted private sector also fails.
 
nfitz said:
Cancelling the current order and retendering is going to mean the vehicles would arrive even later. It took 8 years for the first Flexity to show up after the decision. So if things go smoothly, number 1 of a new order would arrive in 2023. How does that help?
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Also don't forget the TTC made a lot of custom changes to the vehicle design. They may be off the shelf parts but not everything on them is off the shelf,
 
EastYorkTTCFan said:
Also don't forget the TTC made a lot of custom changes to the vehicle design. They may be off the shelf parts but not everything on them is off the shelf,
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That's why 2023 is optimistic. Given the next bid after Bombardier was 50% higher, not only would replacing Bombardier be even slow, it would be a lot more expensive.

Like it not, keeping Bombardier will be faster, and cheaper, even if they blow the 2019 by years.
 
nfitz said:
That's why 2023 is optimistic. Given the next bid after Bombardier was 50% higher, not only would replacing Bombardier be even slow, it would be a lot more expensive.

Like it not, keeping Bombardier will be faster, and cheaper, even if they blow the 2019 by years.
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I think the ext couple months are going to be a turning point. Things have hopefully settled down at Bombardier and they will be able to deliver them to us. Maybe the TTC may not order the additional 60 and decided to put out some tenders to feel things out. But I really don't see them canceling an order of this size anytime soon. It wouldn't send a good message to other bidders.
 
In old streetcar news: one of the refurbished As was recently outshopped. Fresh coat of paint and spruced up interior. It is #4217.
 
was hoping that they repainted it to match the new cars more.
The grey scheme for their vehicles is over 30 years old....
 
nfitz said:
Why would they at the next meeting? At the previous meeting, management reported they were confident that Bombardier was getting on track, and was now achieving the 5-day build. Given the assembly process is a ... what 2-3 month operation per car, then one has to give them time to get the 5-day build in the front end, out the back end.

Cancelling the current order and retendering is going to mean the vehicles would arrive even later. It took 8 years for the first Flexity to show up after the decision. So if things go smoothly, number 1 of a new order would arrive in 2023. How does that help?
Click to expand...

if bombardier survives the next 2 years then maybe we get our cars eventually. But if they don't survive then the contract could be cancelled or significantly delayed in a bankruptcy situation. If we wait 2 years to get to that point and then try another company they will have the upper hand in any negotiations (that is assuming the city would decide to maintain a rail system without vehicles for 5 years). The 60 option we have now is a good foot in the door for any company and they would jump at the chance to steal that from bombardier (and potential future business) likewise it is good for the city because it allows for us to diversify the fleet and protects from any potential that bombardier won't be able to deliver. To not put it out to tender is problematic anyways (even with the bombardier option) given the lack of performance from bombardier. That needs to happen before we get to the cutoff point in the contract when we need to tell bombardier whether we want the option or not.

Cost may become secondary to making sure the Toronto transit system remains viable. Buying busses or scrapping the system because we don't have a way to get streetcars would look very very bad for the comissioners. Especially since we have known of the issues for over a year and are just starting to see what the options are.
 
georgevicbell said:
if bombardier survives the next 2 years then maybe we get our cars eventually. But if they don't survive then the contract could be cancelled or significantly delayed in a bankruptcy situation. If we wait 2 years to get to that point and then try another company they will have the upper hand in any negotiations (that is assuming the city would decide to maintain a rail system without vehicles for 5 years). The 60 option we have now is a good foot in the door for any company and they would jump at the chance to steal that from bombardier (and potential future business) likewise it is good for the city because it allows for us to diversify the fleet and protects from any potential that bombardier won't be able to deliver. To not put it out to tender is problematic anyways (even with the bombardier option) given the lack of performance from bombardier. That needs to happen before we get to the cutoff point in the contract when we need to tell bombardier whether we want the option or not.

Cost may become secondary to making sure the Toronto transit system remains viable. Buying busses or scrapping the system because we don't have a way to get streetcars would look very very bad for the comissioners. Especially since we have known of the issues for over a year and are just starting to see what the options are.
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Why would you think a Bombardier bankruptcy or reorganization would cancel the contract? That contract would be a very valuable part of the company and would, I'm sure, be sold on to the highest bidder. The Thunder Bay plant would only be valuable if the contracts were still in force.

From the Toronto side, scrapping the streetcar contract would be nonsensical, no? You have a huge, complex assembly operation going on that is building streetcars purpose-built for Toronto's unique specifications (gauge, platforms, etc.) It seems like scrapping the current contract is the worst of all possible options.
 
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