Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I wonder how many times on the 50+ pages here we've circled back to this 905/416 argument...

I wholeheartedly agree with everyone who points out Steeles is a random boundary and that if Hwy 7 were in Toronto and everything else were the same, no one would really be complaining.

There is no reason for the subway to end at Finch except that it's where it ends. It's awfully shortsighted to stand by a transit terminus build 35 (!) years ago and prattle on about how there's no density etc north of there.

I'm curious what percentage of people who object to taking the Yonge line north actually know what the landscape is like between Finch and 7 vs. those who thing that York Region is empty because it's not Toronto.

I don't see how anyone could have enough interest in transit to be on these boards and have ZERO understanding of the regional transit system being developed of which perhaps the biggest node outside Union Station is Yonge Street and Highway 7. It's baffling, really.

Also,Ii'll be the 50th person to explain to Torontoians that both York Region and Toronto got what they asked for from the province. You want to live in a place where your politicians prioritize subways? Well, by all means, move up here to York Region! You might find it's not quite as bleak and distant from Toronto as you once suspected and we'll even have fare cards soon.

 

[Second_in_pie]

I wonder how many times on the 50+ pages here we've circled back to this 905/416 argument...

I wholeheartedly agree with everyone who points out Steeles is a random boundary and that if Hwy 7 were in Toronto and everything else were the same, no one would really be complaining.

There is no reason for the subway to end at Finch except that it's where it ends. It's awfully shortsighted to stand by a transit terminus build 35 (!) years ago and prattle on about how there's no density etc north of there.

I'm curious what percentage of people who object to taking the Yonge line north actually know what the landscape is like between Finch and 7 vs. those who thing that York Region is empty because it's not Toronto.

I don't see how anyone could have enough interest in transit to be on these boards and have ZERO understanding of the regional transit system being developed of which perhaps the biggest node outside Union Station is Yonge Street and Highway 7. It's baffling, really.

Also,Ii'll be the 50th person to explain to Torontoians that both York Region and Toronto got what they asked for from the province. You want to live in a place where your politicians prioritize subways? Well, by all means, move up here to York Region! You might find it's not quite as bleak and distant from Toronto as you once suspected and we'll even have fare cards soon.

Looking at the double argument that's going on here in and between the Spadina and Yonge extension threads, I wonder what percentage of people think that too...

It's not that there's no reason to build a subway up to Vaughn or Richmond Hill, it's that there should be other subways like DRL, Eglinton or Sheppard that need subway too, and I think they have a higher ridership potential than YUS extensions. They should all happen, but DRL Eglinton and Sheppard should be higher on the priority list.

It is true that York Region is the one lobbying for the subway and we're getting it. York Region wants subway, TTC wants LRT. It's rather dumb how the TTC wants LRT to magically solve all it's problems, but that's what Miller and Giambrone want. I say if we pledge to build (and finish) the DRL and Eglinton, and extend Sheppard somewhere, let's extend the YUS too. Heck, if we're going to be spending money on subway like that, let's extend Bloor to Sherway Gardens and run a Dundas Subway from Kipling through Missisauga! All transit projects that are needed, but York Region is pressing for it, and we are getting it.

Seriously though, if York Region keeps doing what it's doing, Viva purple will be a subway by 2030, and Viva Blue will be subway from Steeles to Elgin Mills!

 

[scarberiankhatru]

But even in the best-case electrified regional rail scenario for Milton, rapid *local* transit between Hurontario and Kipling still wouldn't be addressed. And the proposed Dundas LRT would still manage to avoid Sherway(!), along with its other obvious disadvantages in comparison to simply extending the subway to a more logical terminus (not necessarily all the way to SQ1).

I realize the solution will never be optimal, but I'm not convinced it's really that much different from the Yonge corridor. Westenders have jobs to go to, friends to see and errands to run locally as well. And it's all too easy to dismiss counterarguments as mere feelings of entitlement to subwaydom.

This would be a good opportunity for you or anyone else to post a good explanation - *any* explanation - for how a Bloor extension helps anyone or solves any travel problem. "Westenders have places to go" is a completely meaningless statement. Square One is an ideal place to terminate a subway line and it would be a cool place to end a line and it would be a busy stop, but no one has ever posted a single reason why the subway should run there other than "Mississauga deserves a subway." Not one. There's all these Mississauga forumers here and none of them can agree on anything re: the extension, either where it should run or where it will stop or what it will accomplish...compare this to a Yonge extension north of Finch, which has a very clear purpose, one obvious path, and proven benefits. There is no comparison.

 

[ellett44]

Agree with TJ above. It seems to me the argument against goes as follows:

(1) The density north of Steeles is too low to warrant a subway; however
(2) The density that will be getting on the new extension will further outstrip the capacity of the Yonge line, amplifying the problem at Yonge and Bloor

Which leads me to this (perhaps overly optimistic thought): imagine a the extension does get built and the added volume oustrips capacity. Doesn't that put more pressure on the TTC/Toronto to do something about it, i.e. DRL. Is that not viable? I mean could they possibly continue the status quo if people aren't able to board on Bloor or even better yet Eglinton/Finch! If not, I say bring on this extension if it secures Toronto a subway upgrade to its transit system. Maybe I'm way off base.

 

[Jupiter]

I just did a paper analyzing this extension and the problems with it.

First off, the TTC uses a figure of 100 people plus jobs / hectare to determine the minimum density that a subway can become useful.

Out of the 6 stations planned for the extension, numbers for Cummer were not provided, but of the rest, only Clark currently has a density over 100, and just barely (111). In fact, the average density of the 5 stops is 62 ppj/ha. For reference, when Sheppard opened and was underused, it was at 82. Estimates suggest 4200 new riders will be added, which doesn't seem that significant for such a large investment. In fact, they're pretty much hoping on complete redevelopment, which even the TTC has admitted in their Rapid Transit Expansion Report that

“When some stations have extensive redevelopment and others have none 25 years after a line was constructed, it should come as no surprise that ‘if you zone developers will come’ is not always the case.â€

...so there's really no guarantees these stations will see the massive (in some cases, up to 6X more density projected by 2031, and upwards of 13X by 2051) development that is not just expected, but necessary to support this line.

So... it's highly questionable if this line would be a good idea even if it weren't for the other factors.

Those other factors relate to capacity and the cost associated with the capacity. Bloor Yonge would need to be expanded, and when some smaller additional costs are factored in, this line would cost a half a billion dollars per km.

Given that the line won't even have any significant ridership until 2031 at BEST, it would seem beyond logical to build the DRL first, so that when the Yonge line is extended (eventually, when needed...) they don't need to expand Bloor-Yonge. Build what is NEEDED first, and build the yonge line further when demand warrants it.

 

[Jupiter]

Agree with TJ above. It seems to me the argument against goes as follows:

(1) The density north of Steeles is too low to warrant a subway; however
(2) The density that will be getting on the new extension will further outstrip the capacity of the Yonge line, amplifying the problem at Yonge and Bloor

Which leads me to this (perhaps overly optimistic thought): imagine a the extension does get built and the added volume oustrips capacity. Doesn't that put more pressure on the TTC/Toronto to do something about it, i.e. DRL. Is that not viable? I mean could they possibly continue the status quo if people aren't able to board on Bloor or even better yet Eglinton/Finch! If not, I say bring on this extension if it secures Toronto a subway upgrade to its transit system. Maybe I'm way off base.

That was one of my professor's opinions. That by building the Yonge line first they're basically forcing construction of the DRL.

 

[Chuck]

That was one of my professor's opinions. That by building the Yonge line first they're basically forcing construction of the DRL.

In an ironic twist of fate, the only hope that we've got for a DRL may lie in the 905 area's desire for subway expansion. In an ideal world, the DRL would be built because Toronto council actually wants it. In the actual world, only the 905 area wants subway construction. Either way, Toronto may still get its DRL after all...

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I just did a paper analyzing this extension and the problems with it.

First off, the TTC uses a figure of 100 people plus jobs / hectare to determine the minimum density that a subway can become useful.

Out of the 6 stations planned for the extension, numbers for Cummer were not provided, but of the rest, only Clark currently has a density over 100, and just barely (111). In fact, the average density of the 5 stops is 62 ppj/ha. For reference, when Sheppard opened and was underused, it was at 82. Estimates suggest 4200 new riders will be added, which doesn't seem that significant for such a large investment. In fact, they're pretty much hoping on complete redevelopment, which even the TTC has admitted in their Rapid Transit Expansion Report that

“When some stations have extensive redevelopment and others have none 25 years after a line was constructed, it should come as no surprise that ‘if you zone developers will come’ is not always the case.â€

...so there's really no guarantees these stations will see the massive (in some cases, up to 6X more density projected by 2031, and upwards of 13X by 2051) development that is not just expected, but necessary to support this line.

So... it's highly questionable if this line would be a good idea even if it weren't for the other factors.

Those other factors relate to capacity and the cost associated with the capacity. Bloor Yonge would need to be expanded, and when some smaller additional costs are factored in, this line would cost a half a billion dollars per km.

Given that the line won't even have any significant ridership until 2031 at BEST, it would seem beyond logical to build the DRL first, so that when the Yonge line is extended (eventually, when needed...) they don't need to expand Bloor-Yonge. Build what is NEEDED first, and build the yonge line further when demand warrants it.

You're not using any of these numbers right.

Density is irrelevent...what are the raw numbers of riders? They calculate these figures using methods like cute little 500m planning circles that are in no way indicative of real walking conditions and don't tell you what's beyond the 500m (or what's inside them...housing? jobs? retail? what?).

What about feeder bus riders? It's feeder bus riders, not walk-in riders, that fill the bulk of our subway lines. Why criticize Yonge & Steeles for not being dense enough? Even if no development occurs, everyone knows the station would see probably over 40K riders a day on day 1, due to a few very busy bus routes...do bus riders not count?

"Density" along Sheppard was always and still is at and east of Don Mills, not between Yonge and Don Mills (though it's slowly filling up).

If you're going to include the cost of rebuilding Yonge & Bloor (which is already dangerously crowded and warrants a solution) you might as well include the cost of a new nuclear plant to power the vehicles. Sorry, but the case for extending Yonge north of Finch is entirely unimpeachable and the fact that a DRL is also needed does not change anything...both can be built, it's *not* one or the other!

 

[urbanfan89]

Those other factors relate to capacity and the cost associated with the capacity. Bloor Yonge would need to be expanded, and when some smaller additional costs are factored in, this line would cost a half a billion dollars per km..

So to put it in a nutshell: a) the ridership will not be high enough to justify building the Yonge Line extension and b) the ridership will soar to the point Yonge-Bloor station will need to be rebuilt.

Which is it?

 

[Dan416]

This would be a good opportunity for you or anyone else to post a good explanation - *any* explanation - for how a Bloor extension helps anyone or solves any travel problem. "Westenders have places to go" is a completely meaningless statement. Square One is an ideal place to terminate a subway line and it would be a cool place to end a line and it would be a busy stop, but no one has ever posted a single reason why the subway should run there other than "Mississauga deserves a subway." Not one. There's all these Mississauga forumers here and none of them can agree on anything re: the extension, either where it should run or where it will stop or what it will accomplish...compare this to a Yonge extension north of Finch, which has a very clear purpose, one obvious path, and proven benefits. There is no comparison.

Just because there's disagreement about where the Bloor extension is run doesn't make it any less worthwhile than a Yonge extension. I support a Yonge extension. We need many subway extensions. Spadina to York U I fully support.

Not a single reason to run a subway to MCC? How about taking buses off the road? Connecting Mississauga to the subway network? How about ANY of the reasons they're using to justify Spadina and/or Yonge?

Your Mississauga argument is not even a red herring. It's not an argument at all.

 

[Voltz]

So to put it in a nutshell: a) the ridership will not be high enough to justify building the Yonge Line extension and b) the ridership will soar to the point Yonge-Bloor station will need to be rebuilt.

Which is it?

Considering the fact that Bloor-Yonge pretty much already needs to be rebuilt and most of the Yonge line is at capacity, it is very possible for both of those points to be correct at the same time. Stating that it must be one or the other is a rather simplified, narrow minded and false.

 

[Anth]

This would be a good opportunity for you or anyone else to post a good explanation - *any* explanation - for how a Bloor extension helps anyone or solves any travel problem. "Westenders have places to go" is a completely meaningless statement. Square One is an ideal place to terminate a subway line and it would be a cool place to end a line and it would be a busy stop, but no one has ever posted a single reason why the subway should run there other than "Mississauga deserves a subway." Not one. There's all these Mississauga forumers here and none of them can agree on anything re: the extension, either where it should run or where it will stop or what it will accomplish...compare this to a Yonge extension north of Finch, which has a very clear purpose, one obvious path, and proven benefits. There is no comparison.

Now you're being disingenuous and this isn't up to your usual standard. I understand many old timers here are exasperated with certain Mississauga forumers, but that's no reason to lump them all together. Not-so-coincidentally, UT as a whole has a huge blindspot for Etobicoke and Peel when it comes to transit.

This isn't the right thread for this and for that I apologize, but the argument for an extension of the Bloor line is neither a mystery nor any less valid:

- The "obvious path" is precisely what the TTC originally envisioned: Dundas via Sherway to at least Dixie or Hurontario. Ideally Square One. Anything else is crackpottery.

- Kipling is literally in the middle of nowhere and MT is forced to use Islington as its connection to the subway network. An extension would allow MT to completely reorganize and rationalize its eastern bus routes to feed the subway, making transit a far more attractive option to East Mississaugans/Etobians while avoiding the the mass convergence of ridiculously windy (read: wasteful; of time, gas) bus routes at a single node.

- Sherway and Square One are major GTA attractions without any rapid transit connections to speak of, yet they could potentially be served by a single, seamless rapid transit line.

- The proposed Dundas LRT can't serve Sherway.

- The best-case electrified regional rail scenario for Milton would get people from downtown to MCC and beyond much faster, but still can't serve the corridor between Hurontario and Kipling in a local sense by definition. It also can't serve Sherway.

- A Bloor extension would allow rapid, local, *transferless* travel between East Mississauga and Etobicoke, while providing a link to the rest of the subway network when transferring to the Milton line wouldn't make sense.

- Dundas is already an important *existing* corridor with massive redevelopment potential. This potential could be realized at least partially with LRT, but a subway line via Sherway would likely be a much stronger force.

- The Milton line intersecting a Bloor extension "at least 3 times" wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing; it would simply function as an express route for that length.

Finally, the "Westenders have places to go" comment was in reference to Chuck's original post and meaningful in that context.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Your Mississauga argument is not even a red herring. It's not an argument at all.

Well, it's not my argument, it's Anth's.

 

[Chuck]

I believe that Scarberian's point revolves around the interchangeability of subway extension trips with GO trips. He is saying that South York is highly integrated with communities on Yonge north of Bloor, therefore the best transit mode is one that has ample stops in between Highway 7 and downtown. As a result, the subway is better able to suit the needs of the Yonge corridor than GO.

However, because Mississauga is poorly integrated with intermediate communities along the Bloor Line, the typical commuter would be best served by a transit mode that stops in Mississauga, downtown, and as few intermediate stops as possible in between. For the Mississauga-Toronto corridor, GO is best able to serve the needs of the typical commuter.

The reason why the Yonge extension is required more so than the Bloor extension has nothing to do with actual ridership - we all know that Mississauga generates more transit trips than South York. However, the nature of travel patterns are such that a subway makes more sense in York Region, while the GO train makes more sense in Mississauga.

Missisauga might be best served by a subway or LRT along Hurontario that terminates at a GO Station that has frequent all day service. Whether or not the Hurontario subway connects to the Bloor line is inconsequential, so long the subway connects to a GO station that has frequent service.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

- The Milton line intersecting a Bloor extension "at least 3 times" wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing; it would simply function as an express route for that length.

Finally, the "Westenders have places to go" comment was in reference to Chuck's original post and meaningful in that context.

You're not quite understanding what Chuck was saying...there's a long string of origins and destinations along Yonge that GO is completely incapable of serving. Meanwhile, the Bloor extension you mentioned would run almost entirely within walking distance of the Milton GO line, all the way to Hurontario. Who cares what could happen in definition, what could happen in practice? Most importantly, Mississauga doesn't want an extension. Dundas may never be redeveloped (and any area can be redeveloped, subway or no subway), especially if the extension runs along the rail corridor rather than Dundas. It's also far from obvious how it'd get to Square One from Dixie, like how much of Dundas and Hurontario it'd overlap. Square One makes a good transit hub (although it's far too large to be served by one station) and would finish the line nicely, looking good on maps and being good at connecting the kind of vague things that politicians and planners love connecting, but stopping at Sherway does the same thing. As I've done before, I asked people to come up with a reason to extend the Bloor line that was not based on "well, York Region got one, so Peel needs one, too." Things don't automatically apply to Mississauga/Bloor because they apply to York Region/Yonge.