Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[Paleo]

Uh...wut? Perhaps for the Spadina Line into Vaughan, but definitely not for the Yonge Line. I don't believe the standing-room conditions on the Yonge Line at Finch will suddenly vanish if the tunnel is extended north.

Current headway and loading standard is 141 seconds with 1000/train which makes for line capacity of 25,500 ppdph.

ATC is coming with new trains that will hold 1100. The best case super optimistic scenario with ATC is 105 second headway which gives 37,400 ppdph. With 120 second headway line capacity would be 33,000 ppdph.

With Spadina projected for 7,000 ppdph and Yonge at 8,800 ppdph, even in the latter pessimistic scenario, it means the overwhelming majority of the expensive subway capacity is not being used. (almost 80% and 75% respectively)

Keep in mind these are not opening day projections, these are projections for 20+ years from now after 20 years of "massive development". (No, a bus that comes by once every 10 minutes is not a sign of "heavy" transit demand)

Build the mode to fit the expected demand. Suggesting that upgrades should come in the form of upgraded feeder service (be it BRT or LRT, whatever) isn't hating on the 905 municipalities. It's just plain common sense.

Subways are far too expensive to build, maintain, and operate when they're going to be mostly empty even at its busiest times. (ignoring even the opportunity costs of dumping $5 billion or more into them)

Riders from Richmond Hill headed to NYCC? Transfer from LRT at Finch or Steeles, like people from the Steeles or Finch bus do today.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

ATC is coming with new trains that will hold 1100. The best case super optimistic scenario with ATC is 105 second headway which gives 37,400 ppdph. With 120 second headway line capacity would be 33,000 ppdph.

Please keep in mind that an 'at capacity' ridership on the trains represents both a theoretical possibility (not a probability) in terms of bodies on vehicles and an unacceptable level of crowding in practice that will lead to delays and discontent. 1100 per vehicle is not comfortable or desirable or even particularly efficient, it is crushed full, with no hope for a seat and with people having nothing to hold on to. 1100 is also just not going to happen when you factor in backpacks, purses, strollers, those briefcase-on-wheels luggage things, winter coats, canes, and simple (and increasing) obesity, never mind the fact that Torontonians will not touch each other.

Why on earth do people on the internet think transit lines are failures unless they are literally overcrowded and leave people behind on the platform? Really, though, no one applies 'must be at capacity' criteria to GO lines, LRT, BRT, or anything else, no matter how many tens of billions of dollars might get spent on them.

If the subway north of Finch moved 30K+ people per hour, no one would be able to get on south of there and thousands upon thousands of trips would have to be accommodated elsewhere, including places like the DVP.

ATC, second entrances at stations like College, fixing Yonge station (Bloor line)...these should all be done no matter what happens with the Yonge extension, and though currently just desired these will be required given any transit expansion of any mode anywhere in the city or even a small amount of simple ridership growth.

 

[xtremesniper]

If the subway north of Finch moved 30K+ people per hour, no one would be able to get on south of there and thousands upon thousands of trips would have to be accommodated elsewhere, including places like the DVP..

Well, that's why they have been talking about turning back every other train at Finch so that a completely empty train starts its journey southbound as it currently does, so if the trains arrive already packed with people from northern stations, it won't be the end of the world for people south of Finch.

 

[Amphibius]

^^ So that would mean headways of every 5 minutes for the section north of Finch Stn. Basically the realm of streetcar/LRT frequency. When minor details like this start to emerge it becomes more and more apparent what mode should really be traversing York Region.

 

[jaycola]

If the subway north of Finch moved 30K+ people per hour, no one would be able to get on south of there and thousands upon thousands of trips would have to be accommodated elsewhere, including places like the DVP.

What happens when all of these passengers get off of the Yonge LRT at Finch? Where do they go from there? Are they getting on the subway at finch now?

I can't see how they get to Finch will make a difference on the section south of Finch. If it is overcrowded with a Subway extention, won't it be overcrowded with a Streetcar? What am I not getting here?

 

[xtremesniper]

^^ So that would mean headways of every 5 minutes for the section north of Finch Stn. Basically the realm of streetcar/LRT frequency. When minor details like this start to emerge it becomes more and more apparent what mode should really be traversing York Region.

... No, I don't see your point. One subway train can hold far more people than one or two streetcars. Making comparisons to the headways between subways and streetcars in relation to passenger count is not too smart.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

What happens when all of these passengers get off of the Yonge LRT at Finch? Where do they go from there? Are they getting on the subway at finch now?

I can't see how they get to Finch will make a difference on the section south of Finch. If it is overcrowded with a Subway extention, won't it be overcrowded with a Streetcar? What am I not getting here?

It's already overcrowded. We already need more subways line and GO trains and LRT and buses and anything else, both in/to downtown and in the suburbs.

What you're not getting is that people are saying the subway north of Finch must use its full theoretical capacity to be worth extending. This is literally impossible.

Remember that an LRT line beginning at Finch (and an LRT line is a separate line, not an extension of the same line) would not be used by TTC buses and would not likely be used by park-n-riders...there'd still be a huge number of buses and cars fighting to get into Finch station, and fighting the LRT along Yonge.

 

[xtremesniper]

It's already overcrowded. We already need more subways line and GO trains and LRT and buses and anything else, both in/to downtown and in the suburbs.

What you're not getting is that people are saying the subway north of Finch must use its full theoretical capacity to be worth extending. This is literally impossible.

Remember that an LRT line beginning at Finch (and an LRT line is a separate line, not an extension of the same line) would not be used by TTC buses and would not likely be used by park-n-riders...there'd still be a huge number of buses and cars fighting to get into Finch station, and fighting the LRT along Yonge.

You've got a point. If it is an extension, that "seamless" method of going downtown is what attracts most car drivers. If they have to make a transfer/connection (especially on a line that doesn't actually even change directions, but instead continues in the same southbound direction), that would turn them off.

It just reminds me of the days when I'd try to park at Finch and there would be a line of cars waiting to turn into 1 of 2 entrances that would stretch from Bishop to Cummer and sometimes beyond, along Willowdale. Terrible situation.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

You could run LRT along Yonge north of Finch to Barrie but park-n-riders won't use it. Neither will 60K+ daily riders of the 5 TTC routes that run north of Finch.

 

[kettal]

So all the extension does, then, is move the giant Finch parking lot up to Richmond Hill, so park-n-riders can save 4 km of driving...

Let 'em drive to Finch, I say.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

So all the extension does, then, is move the giant Finch parking lot up to Richmond Hill, so park-n-riders can save 4 km of driving...

Let 'em drive to Finch, I say.

That's all it does when you choose to ignore everything else.

They'll still be able to drive to Finch.

 

[kettal]

Then what are the other great advantages, I am supposedly ignoring, that a subway will bring but a partially-tunnelled LRT won't?

 

[xtremesniper]

So all the extension does, then, is move the giant Finch parking lot up to Richmond Hill, so park-n-riders can save 4 km of driving...

Let 'em drive to Finch, I say.

It does more than just that, obviously.

But one of the big points is that it will actually make the Yonge/Hwy 7 (and in general, anything north of Steeles) area become "part" of the city, instead of how it is right now: seemingly disconnected. It would close the gap on the silly 416 vs 905 situation and further drive (more than it already is) development along Yonge Street, and it would encourage more transit growth in York Region with the possibility of added Viva routes or increased coverage and frequency with YRT routes. It would send off a chain reaction of events.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

So all the extension does, then, is move the giant Finch parking lot up to Richmond Hill, so park-n-riders can save 4 km of driving...

Let 'em drive to Finch, I say.

Spoken like a person who has never driven on Yonge St north of Finch.
As someone who does this almost every day I'll tell you I think it's worth $2b of taxpayer money to get thousands of cars and thousands of buses off that road.

I can't imagine today how much easier it will be to drive on that stretch once the subway is open and people aren't jockeying around the 10 bus lines and the cars now convening at Finch.

And it's not just Yonge - if you lived on Willowdale or any of those residential streets suffering from MAJOR traffic infiltration so people can cut through to Finch you'd have a very different POV.

To sum up: Even if ALL this line does is stop people from driving to Finch it will be one of the best transit projects built in years. To say otherwise is to show a fundamental misunderstanding of how cars and people move in the north end of the city.

 

[unimaginative2]

See, this is where I start to disagree. In a transit planning context, most forumers here always see Mississauga in a commuter-centric, downtown-oriented way, when in fact I would say it's far more integrated with western Toronto than it may appear at first glance. This integration is both evidenced and obscured by the enormous volume of car travel between the jurisdictions and poorly designed, time consuming bus routes with understandably low ridership. Geography also contributes to the purely psychological fragmentation of the area as the grid bends around the lake and Etobicoke Creek.

You're absolutely right. A downtown, commuter-centric focus is wrong for Mississauga. That doesn't mean that regional rail is an inappropriate mode. The reason that the Milton line is perfect for rapid transit is that it serves so much of Mississauga, connects with a route to Downtown Brampton, and connects with the subway not only at Kipling but also Dundas West. Think of it as a New York express-style subway line. West of Kipling, the route is local, but east of Kipling it runs express with only three stops at Kipling, Dundas West and Union. The fact that the non-stop section isn't immediately adjacent to the existing Bloor subway is irrelevant.

Perhaps one could argue that North Yonge is even more integrated, but that doesn't invalidate the idea of extending Bloor, regardless of where it stands on our long list of priorities. My problem with the response here over the years is that rather than looking at it as simply a matter of priority, it's summarily dismissed as ridiculous by those who then turn around and use the same arguments to support projects of lesser value (not Yonge necessarily). I'm thinking many of you need a very leisurely Saturday afternoon drive across Dundas and up Hurontario to get the point.

Mississauga needs rapid transit just as badly, if not more, than any other part of the 905. It's just a matter of the form that it takes. A high-frequency, regional rail service (or "Express Subway") on the Milton line corridor, connecting at multiple points to the existing subway, would be more useful than an extended Bloor line. I do still think it makes sense to extend the Bloor Line to Sherway, or at least East Mall.

Neither the Milton line (which we'll be lucky to see electrified let alone regional rail-ified in our lifetimes) nor the proposed Dundas LRT will properly serve the area without multiple transfers or weird spurs (to, say, Sherway). But maybe we'll just have to live with that.

I completely agree about the LRT. Why would it be so difficult to regional railize the Milton Line? It would likely cost less than the subway extension from Kipling to Square One alone (especially with the TTC's inflated costs) and would serve far more of the city with much faster rides.