Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[micheal_can]

Cost would be high. However:

[...]View attachment 169017
It really might be time to look at the costs of burying HV vs. The Bigger Picture. To do it on a 'stand-alone' basis would be ridiculous, but to unlock the land for other uses, it could well be worth it...

When you are talking about the GTA, burying those wires makes sense. Out of the GTA, the return on investment is not worth it.

As far as where we would see it, you know that "Delivery" charge on your bill? That is where it would be placed.

 

[steveintoronto]

When you are talking about the GTA, burying those wires makes sense. Out of the GTA, the return on investment is not worth it.

As far as where we would see it, you know that "Delivery" charge on your bill? That is where it would be placed.

Errr...looked at the cost of subways at all lately? Looked at the density north of Toronto?

If you have other solutions, please share...I'm talking *market driven ones*! And the 407 Missing Link, even though it doesn't click with the Cons, but will click with investors if presented on the right manner.

The quest is for *surface routes* to extend Toronto's subway network (albeit I digress, I think it should be standard gauge regional rail, the same factors apply) to make it faster to build, affordable and *saleable*!

 

[micheal_can]

Errr...looked at the cost of subways at all lately? Looked at the density north of Toronto?

If you have other solutions, please share...I'm talking *market driven ones*!

That is what I was getting at. All the corridors in Toronto should have seen their wires buried. Then the land can be used for development.

 

[steveintoronto]

Out of the GTA, the return on investment is not worth it.

My apologies, I mentally read 'Toronto', whereas we're talking the GTA. I agree!

 

[micheal_can]

My apologies, I mentally read 'Toronto', whereas we're talking the GTA. I agree!

I live in Northern ON. The shear cost of burying the wires near me in the middle of B.F.N. could be better spent. However, doing so would mean in a bad wind or ice storm, the lines are still intact. But from a practical point of view, urban areas should be done and the ROW be used for future development.

 

[steveintoronto]

Just found an excellent page on this, complete with a video that answered a technical point that was scaring the B-Jezuzz out of me. The cables are shielded! So if a core arcs, it does so to the jacket, not externally. As a tech, I've been zapped too many times at approx 25kV or more (Cathode Ray Tube anodes, both live and in resting state, they're a massive capacitor, can hold the charge for days) so there's no freakin' way you'd get me in a tunnel with 400kV cables, but now knowing they're wrapped with a shield (think coax cable for internet/TV on a massive scale)...lol...there's still no freakin' way to go into a tunnel like that, albeit I'd been fixated on the shielding if I did: (I'll link the vid at the end)

Cable Tunnels - National Grid London Cable Tunnels (400kV)
Ellis Patents Centaur Cable Saddle Cleats For High Voltage Cable Support

National Grid Cable Tunnels

London accounts for 20% of the UK's electricity demand and this is continuing to grow by 3-5% a year - thisompares to the UK average of 1-2% a year. It is National Grids responsibility to ensure there is sufficient transmission infrastructure available to support future energy demand in London and as part of National Grid investment programme there are plans to build four deep cable tunnels which will house new 400,000 volt (400kV) extra high voltage cables. These high voltage cable tunnels will connect existing substations at :

*Hackney
*St Johns Wood
*Willesden
*Wimbledon
*Hurst
*Eltham

[...]By housing new electricity cables in tunnels deep below the road surface a number of advantages are achieved compared to traditional methods:
[...]
*Future repair and maintenance work can be carried out without disrupting traffic, businesses and residents.

*Additional cables can be installed in the tunnels to meet future demand.

A shaft, approximately 15m in diameter, is sunk at a large construction site known as a drive site. A tunnel boring machine (TBM) is then lowered down the shaft and starts tunnelling along a pre-determined route at approximately 120m per week. The TBM carries out two main activities. It moves forward cutting through the earth and it also inserts a tunnel lining of concrete segments. The TBM ends its journey at a reception site where another shaft is sunk and the TBM is removed.

Once the tunnel is complete the high voltage cables are pulled through the tunnel from large drums at the drive site. These lengths are then joined together using specialist techniques. The cables connect to National Grid's substations at either end of the route via the shafts. Once the cables are installed, any shafts which are not required for access or ventilation are backfilled.

Intermediate shafts and headhouses are required at key points along the route of the tunnel. The tunnel boring machine will link these points as it progresses along the routes. The Shafts and headhouses are needed for the following reasons:

*Health & Safety - It is essential to have access points to ensure the safety of the workforce during construction. The shafts are also used to access the tunnel for maintenance work once the tunnel is commissioned.

* Ventilation - Ventilation equipment, in the form of fans, is required to cool the cables and regulate the temperature inside the tunnel.
The headhouses will be designed in order to minimise their visual impact on the local area. For example, the building materials will be chosen to complement the surrounding enviroment in agreement with the local council.

National Grid is an international electricity and gas company and one of the largest investor-owned energy companies in the world. National Grid play a vital role in delivering gas and electricity to millions of people across Great Britain and northeastern US in an efficient, reliable and safe manner. National Grid believe the power of action can play a major role in safeguarding the global enviroment for future generations and tackling the effects of climate change, providing all customers with the highest standards of service through network investment and through a talented, diverse workforce. National Grid owns the high-voltage electricity transmission network in England and Wales and operates the system across Great Britain. It also owns and operates the high pressure gas transmission system in Britain and its distribution business delivers gas to 11 million homes and businesses.

*The total length of the four tunnels is approximately 40km.
*Average depth of the tunnels is between 12m and 60m
*The tunnel and shafts are below ground and do not require planning approval.
*Headhouses built on private land require planning approval.
*Planning applications will be submitted from early 2009.
*Total investment will be in the region of £600, 000,000

Video : 400kV Cable Pulling & Installation At Beddington Tunnel Project UK

Note above how the National Grid is a *private entity*! (I'm neither pro nor con on this, just being realistic as to where Ontario is headed) More on this as per National Grid in the US:

News Releases
National Grid Welcomes the Introduction of the "American Power Act"
[...]
National Grid is an international electricity and gas company and one of the largest investor-owned energy companies in the world. In the U.S., National Grid delivers electricity to approximately 3.3 million customers in Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New York and Rhode Island, and manages the electricity network on Long Island under an agreement with the Long Island Power Authority (LIPA). National Grid also owns over 4,000 megawatts of contracted electricity generation that provides power to over one million LIPA customers. It is also the largest distributor of natural gas in the northeastern U.S., serving approximately 3.4 million customers in New York, Massachusetts, New Hampshire and Rhode Island.

https://www9.nationalgridus.com/aboutus/a3-1_news2.asp?document=5183

Hydro One is ripe for this....and more...and they'll give Ford a bloody nose doing it. Ford is no friend of the efficiencies of market solutions. He can't even run a label company fer Crisakes, save to run it into the ground. No wonder he's so enamoured with subways...

 

[lenaitch]

Not aimed at the posters engaged in this particular conversation, but I suppose I have a different view of intensification, or perhaps the application of 'highest and best use'. I realize a lot of the conversations are 'blue-skying', but to read some threads on this forum, some folks will only be satisfied when the city is a continuous parade of highrise buildings (interspersed, i suppose, with a few manicured urban parks) from boundary to waters edge, all infrastructure - rail, road, utilities - should be buried, transit to every front door and anything that is industrial or commercial is considered wasteland. To achieve these ends, wide-scale bulldozing of low density private property is acceptable. Of course, all accomplished with property taxes kept at or below inflation.

Maybe at the end of the day, a utility corridor is simply that. Other compatible uses perhaps. As mentioned elsewhere, there is also petroleum corridor in that hydro ROW - Trans-Northern Pipeline I believe. It's already buried - now what?

 

[steveintoronto]

As mentioned elsewhere, there is also petroleum corridor in that hydro ROW - Trans-Northern Pipeline I believe. It's already buried - now what?

Line 9. It's actually not a problem, as burying (in accessible tunnels) vastly reduces the footprint needed for xmssn towers. I find it hard to believe how far insulation has come, but there you have it, it's being done at even higher voltages than 400kV, including underwater xmssn for hundreds of miles too.

More on Line 9: (DECEMBER 16, 2015) (Almost to the day three years ago, and Albertans take note! I get more than a little tired of their gross misrepresentations of 'Eastern imports instead of our oil'. The majority used in the east of Canada is western, either directly or indirectly by displacement in the US pipeline system)
https://nowtoronto.com/news/why-i-run-line-9/

 

[Transportfan]

Note above how the National Grid is a *private entity*! (I'm neither pro nor con on this, just being realistic as to where Ontario is headed) More on this as per National Grid in the US:

https://www9.nationalgridus.com/aboutus/a3-1_news2.asp?document=5183

Couldn't you have left that out of this thread? It was fun while it lasted but eventually the USS Yankee arrives when irrelevant pure tech stuff comes up. Seriously, what does this have to do with the Toronto subway!?

 

[steveintoronto]

Seriously, what does this have to do with the Toronto subway!?

If I have to point it out to you, then it's not worth explaining to you.

It's called "how others do it"...something Toronto is not very good at, or "a working template to learn from". How freakin' small is Toronto for such a large land mass? And in case you didn't notice, I put it in quotation form so as to offer the option of clicking on it or not. Toronto and the GTA are wasting vast swathes of land that could and should be used as transportation corridors. The way to do that is to condense the footprint used by the infrastructure in that corridor. There's very real irony in that Mann and Mackenzie were both rail and electric utility pioneers in Toronto, and many shared RoWs are the result of that. And now people wonder on the connection.
But then again, some tout subways to Pickering. But I digress...

In case the point wasn't made clear, it's a hell of a lot easier to bury HV xmssn wires than it is a subway, and so the subway can run on the surface of the released space of the hydro RoW. It's a perfect co-existence.

@TheTigerMaster posted but now not appearing in the string:

BTW, Toronto Hydro just built an underground hydro tunnel in Downtown Toronto. It's nothing extravagant, only 500 metres, but might make for a useful local case study.

2015-06-25-Toronto-Hydro-unveils-hidden-tunnel-during-construction-of-transformer-station

Very interesting reading. As @W. K. Lis had posted months back, the Lakeshore xmssn lines go underground around the Humber and emerge somewhere in that area. I wonder if they are connected?

Certainly Ontario has the where-with-all to 'unclutter' RoWs. Where density demands it, the business case appears to already be extant..

 

[lenaitch]

Line 9. It's actually not a problem, as burying (in accessible tunnels) vastly reduces the footprint needed for xmssn towers. I find it hard to believe how far insulation has come, but there you have it, it's being done at even higher voltages than 400kV, including underwater xmssn for hundreds of miles too.

Apparently we're both correct. Multiple petroleum carriers share the easement - TNPL carries refined products westbound. I grew up there and either didn't know or forgot. The terminus for many is the Keele tank farm; west of there ownership of some lines changes. I don't know how wide the easement is within the corridor (which, according to some, is called the Gatineau Corridor - didn't know that either).

 

[steveintoronto]

Apparently we're both correct. Multiple petroleum carriers share the easement - TNPL (edit to correct: TNPI )carries refined products westbound. I grew up there and either didn't know or forgot. The terminus for many is the Keele tank farm; west of there ownership of some lines changes. I don't know how wide the easement is within the corridor (which, according to some, is called the Gatineau Corridor - didn't know that either).

Yikes...it won't be a huge problem to relocate, or accommodate, and it is taking us somewhat off-topic, albeit perfectly pertinent to greater use of utility corridors, but what concerns me is how 'below the radar' this is being kept...perhaps even for security, What I have found out digging (pun not intended) on Line 9 is how much rail RoWs are already used for pipelines. I'm neither pro nor con on this, just a little taken aback at what's going through our backyards, and yet some municipalities like Vaughan and Markham attempt to block hugely beneficial projects that other munis favour like the Missing Link, completely overlooking much greater potential risks.
See: https://www.yorkregion.com/news-sto...ing-of-train-traffic-through-vaughan-markham/

Any links you find most appreciated. I'll continue digging on it.

Quick Google shows:

[...]
The GTA Project has the potential to provide access to lower-cost natural gas supply for the rest of Ontario and Quebec in conjunction with a co-ordinated infrastructure build by Union Gas and TransCanada Pipelines.

Construction is expected to begin in late 2014 and finish in October, 2015.

The new pipeline will be comprised of two separate segments and will be located mainly in existing utility corridors to minimize disruption in the community, the company said.

Segment A will be a 42-inch-diameter pipeline that will be located within a designated utility corridor immediately south of Highway 407. It will travel from Parkway West at Derry Road and Highway 407, approximately 27 kilometres northeast to the existing Albion Station.

Segment B will be a 36-inch diameter pipeline that will begin in an existing utility corridor in the City of Vaughan at Keele Street, just south of Highway 407. [...]

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/rep...bridges-gta-pipeline-upgrade/article16622078/

See: https://tnpi.ca/our-pipelines/

Check this out:

[...]
February 15, 2012, Updated: November, 2012

In July 2010, the Toronto Transit Commission recommended that City Council exempt a petroleum tank farm on Keele Street from a 1954 by-law that prevents oil and gas trucks from traveling over subway lines (1). Today, plans for the subway extension to York University intersect with the Keele Street tank farms of Imperial Oil/Esso, Shell and Suncor. The TTC’s recommendation for an exemption is based on improvements to truck safety since 1954. And as “the tank farms won’t be going anywhere” anyway, it is also practical to change the rules. City Council agreed – in August 2010 they granted the exemption (2). See http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2010/07/08/14651326.html and http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2010/cc/bgrd/backgroundfile-33276.pdf. This also involved re-design of nearby roads to accommodate tanker traffic.

The tank farm, for those who don’t live near it or pass it on the way to work or school in the morning, is owned by a who’s who of Canadian petroleum interests: Imperial Oil and Imperial Oil pipelines, Shell Oil, Sun-Canadian Pipe Line Company, Trans-Northern Pipelines Inc., Enbridge Pipelines (3). Built in the 1940s, the facility stores fuel that ultimately supplies local filling stations (3a).

The debate between the TTC and City Councillors concerned risks of spills, collisions, explosions, and fires (4). Proponents argue that the facilities are too expensive to move and the risk of an explosion is below acceptable levels.
[...]

http://azalik.apps01.yorku.ca/keele-street-tank-farm-report-sentinel-road/

 

[lenaitch]

Yikes...it won't be a huge problem to relocate, or accommodate, and it is taking us somewhat off-topic, albeit perfectly pertinent to greater use of utility corridors, but what concerns me is how 'below the radar' this is being kept...perhaps even for security, What I have found out digging (pun not intended) on Line 9 is how much rail RoWs are already used for pipelines. I'm neither pro nor con on this, just a little taken aback at what's going through our backyards, and yet some municipalities like Vaughan and Markham attempt to block hugely beneficial projects that other munis favour like the Missing Link, completely overlooking much greater potential risks.
See: https://www.yorkregion.com/news-sto...ing-of-train-traffic-through-vaughan-markham/

Any links you find most appreciated. I'll continue digging on it.

Quick Google shows:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/rep...bridges-gta-pipeline-upgrade/article16622078/

See: https://tnpi.ca/our-pipelines/

Check this out:

http://azalik.apps01.yorku.ca/keele-street-tank-farm-report-sentinel-road/

Seriously or sarcasm? I assume the tunneling of electrical transmission lines previously quoted allows them to be built over (Canadian/Ontario rules and Codes notwithstanding) but there is no way in h-e-double hockey sticks they would allows buried pipelines to be built over.

A bylaw that prohibited fuel trucks from driving over subways? I'll bet the number of people who knew (or cared) about that could be counted on the thumbs of one hand.

 

[steveintoronto]

Seriously or sarcasm? I assume the tunneling of electrical transmission lines previously quoted allows them to be built over (Canadian/Ontario rules and Codes notwithstanding) but there is no way in h-e-double hockey sticks they would allows buried pipelines to be built over.

They already have. Over or under. There's no other way to build subways north without crossing those Rights of Way. Unless they move the pipelines further north, but that just kicks the conundrum up the road.

Ostensibly the 'utility corridors' would minimize interaction, but some is inevitable. HV xmssn corridors have been used for rail for a century or more, much of the Penn Mainline is exactly that.

Hydro One's transmission corridors, or Right-of-Ways (ROWs), are essential in delivering safe, reliable and affordable electricity throughout the province. They allow Hydro One 24/7 access to the towers and lines for routine maintenance and in emergency situations.

Many ROWs also have sufficient space to provide for expansion of Hydro One's facilities to accommodate future growth. The ownership of ROWs is diverse and includes government, Hydro One, private property owners, railway companies, and Indigenous communities.

The Ontario government has established a Provincial Secondary Land Use Program (PSLUP) that allows for the use of ROWs, while taking into account the primacy of use of these lands is for electricity transmission and distribution.

Hydro One strives to work with proponents to review secondary land use proposals on the ROWs so that they are compatible with the safety and maintenance requirements of our high-voltage equipment.

https://www.hydroone.com/business-services/secondary-land-use

The above is all written into the Electricity Act. I've quoted, itemized and linked prior in the Missing Link forum.

https://www.sestech.com/pdf/User2000_I.pdf

The discussion a few posts back on the 'coaxial' structure of the latest buried HV cable has removed even most of the concern stated here. The newest cable is *shielded* both mechanically and electrically, at least electrostatically, and magnetically greatly reduced, depending on how the shield is used.

[...]
From Midwest Energy News:

Developer seeks to bury transmission lines along railroad corridors
While proposed long-distance, high-voltage transmission projects continue to be stymied by hostile landowners and disapproving state regulators, a new transmission strategy is taking root in the Midwest.

The Direct Connect Development Company has been working on a plan for an underground transmission line along existing railroad tracks from north-central Iowa to the Chicago area. The goal is to provide a way to move additional wind energy from Iowa, the Dakotas and Minnesota to a transfer point in the Chicago area. From there, the power could move farther east into regions with more electricity demand.

And because the line with a capacity of 2,100 megawatts (MW) would be mostly invisible, it might elude some of the problems that have dogged transmission linesthat would tower overhead while crossing Midwestern farm fields.

Direct Connect CEO Trey Ward said the Canadian Pacific Railway has agreed to allow the comany to bury the line within its right of way, which extends for about 85 percent of the 349-mile route.

[...]

http://www.solarpaces.org/transmission-buried-railroad-corridors-enables-renewables/

The pipelines and subway deserve further digging. Can't say that I'm 'happy' with the accommodation granted by the City of Toronto on it. I wonder what other jurisdictions have mandated?

 

[lenaitch]

They already have. Over or under. There's no other way to build subways north without crossing those Rights of Way. Unless they move the pipelines further north, but that just kicks the conundrum up the road.

Ostensibly the 'utility corridors' would minimize interaction, but some is inevitable. HV xmssn corridors have been used for rail for a century or more, much of the Penn Mainline is exactly that.

https://www.hydroone.com/business-services/secondary-land-use

The above is all written into the Electricity Act. I've quoted, itemized and linked prior in the Missing Link forum.

https://www.sestech.com/pdf/User2000_I.pdf

The discussion a few posts back on the 'coaxial' structure of the latest buried HV cable has removed even most of the concern stated here. The newest cable is *shielded* both mechanically and electrically, at least electrostatically, and magnetically greatly reduced, depending on how the shield is used.
http://www.solarpaces.org/transmission-buried-railroad-corridors-enables-renewables/

The pipelines and subway deserve further digging. Can't say that I'm 'happy' with the accommodation granted by the City of Toronto on it. I wonder what other jurisdictions have mandated?

Across for sure, but not along/over. I was thinking some might be salivating at the prospect of papering over entire ROWs fence-to-fence with housing.