Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[steveintoronto]

But how do you get it to Ontario Place - which is almost a kilometre further south?

The "Ontario Place" spiel is a fantasy. Some kind of link, seasonal most likely, will have to be built, but apart from the Ontario Line itself. LRT or streetcar would be perfect, and connect in at Exhibition and Dufferin, but alas...that's a dialect far beyond Fordism. "LRT" is very difficult for mouth breathers to pronounce.

 

[BurlOak]

I think ML and IO will literally put out an RFP asking the industry to pick a technology that will work in Canadian winter, is the cheapest, meets the forecasted ridership and can handle tight curves.

I also think ML would propose an elevated or at grade section west of Bathurst to Exhibition Station. Of course they wouldn't give a crap about TTC's pet streetcar project to Dufferin Loop. They already passed a law that can prevent the city/TTC from extending the tracks to Dufferin loop.

View attachment 189194
I see this being a rather cheap way to get the line to Exhibition

It looks like the line goes from underground to elevated over the tracks in about 150m. That's going from 5m below grade to 9m above grade (7.2m clearance + 1.8m for the bridge structure). That's 14m in 150m - or about 10% grade. I'd suspect the best trains could do about 5% (or maybe 6%).

 

[Steve X]

Looks interesting, but is it possible to make such a quick transition from underground to elevated just west of Bathurst? Especially, after taking a sharp 90-degrees turn.

It's doable with LRVs and Skytrains. I just drew it that way, they could make it not as sharp. It all depends on what technology is selected. Light metro could be able to make the curve. I does add time to the trip but if they can save half a billion for a couple more minutes, I don't see why not.

The "Ontario Place" spiel is a fantasy. Some kind of link, seasonal most likely, will have to be built, but apart from the Ontario Line itself. LRT or streetcar would be perfect, and connect in at Exhibition and Dufferin, but alas...that's a dialect far beyond Fordism. "LRT" is very difficult for mouth breathers to pronounce.

When Ford actually sees the Confederation line in action, his jaw will drop saying I didn't LRT look like actual trains.

It looks like the line goes from underground to elevated over the tracks in about 150m. That's going from 5m below grade to 9m above grade (7.2m clearance + 1.8m for the bridge structure). That's 14m in 150m - or about 10% grade. I'd suspect the best trains could do about 5% (or maybe 6%).

It's doable if they selected rubber tyred trains.

 

[nfitz]

It won't. That's the feeling i'm getting from the wording. There will be only one station at Exhibition/Ontario Place. They are planning it as an interchange station with the concept that it will relief GO Train riders. With one station, it'll have to make a convenient transfer with the LSW line. The Ontario Place name seems like a marketing strategy to sell the idea Ontario Place is getting rapid transit.

One one hand, just having a station at the existing location is probably the sensitive and pragmatic thing.

But on the other hand, that's so different from that Ford and Tories have said, that it seems unlikely. I know Doug Ford lies, but even I don't think that they'd tell that big of a lie, that will blow up well before the 2022 election.

That's almost the same distance as from the proposed Line 2 extension station at Brimley/Danforth/Eglinton to eastern edge of the Eglinton GO platform. Should they share a name too?

We've made fun of the Pioneer Village name before ... this is about double the distance from the northwest entrance to Pioneer Village station to the village itself (though an entrance at that northeast corner to the site would help ...).

 

[steveintoronto]

It looks like the line goes from underground to elevated over the tracks in about 150m. That's going from 5m below grade to 9m above grade (7.2m clearance + 1.8m for the bridge structure). That's 14m in 150m - or about 10% grade. I'd suspect the best trains could do about 5% (or maybe 6%).

Even that is optimistic! (But you fully realize the engineering practicalities)

Vertical Alignment The vertical alignment of the proposed Relief Line was developed following the existing TTC Design Manual standards for subway infrastructure. The minimum and maximum design parameters used on the vertical alignment are:
1) Minimum gradient at stations and special track structures = 0.3%
2) Maximum gradient along rest of running structure = 3.5%
3) Minimum length of vertical curve: LVC = 60 m

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pd...Design Standards and Construction Methods.pdf pg 3

And that's for an 'all in tunnel' design, not exposed to rain, snow, ice.

You'd hope that Verster, Ford et al would have technical advisors, rather than shamans and witch doctors, but alas...

 

[muller877]

It looks like the line goes from underground to elevated over the tracks in about 150m. That's going from 5m below grade to 9m above grade (7.2m clearance + 1.8m for the bridge structure). That's 14m in 150m - or about 10% grade. I'd suspect the best trains could do about 5% (or maybe 6%).

it's 215m from Bayview @ Lawren Harris square to the top of the berm near the train tracks. We now know they plan to follow the train ROW up to Gerrard
The berm is 8.5m high. So 13.5m height in 215m distance. 14m high in 230m for going over the tracks. 6.3% grade for the former and 6.1% for the later.

Pittsburg has a grade of 10%
Portland has 7%
Sheffield has 10%

So the grade is not a problem.

 

[Northern Light]

it's 215m from Bayview @ Lawren Harris square to the top of the berm near the train tracks. We now know they plan to follow the train ROW up to Gerrard
The berm is 8.5m high. So 13.5m height in 215m distance. 14m high in 230m for going over the tracks. 6.3% grade for the former and 6.1% for the later.

Pittsburg has a grade of 10%
Portland has 7%
Sheffield has 10%

So the grade is not a problem.

On what basis did you figure out the required clearance for the Richmond Hill GO Corridor?

Bare minimum clearance requirements are 6.7M, assuming the 2 tracks were equally elevated, that works out to 15.2M, assuming you got the berm height correct.

Moreover, though, wouldn't that assume the subway was already fully at grade at Bayview?

It has to get from tunnel depth up to height, the tunnel itself is about 5.8m tall, but the ceiling will not be right below the road as it has to slide under a rather large sewer.

For reference, the tunnel is currently designed at a depth of 20M under Eastern Avenue.

Perhaps my math is off...........

But I'm getting a number closer to 14% grade.

Keep in mind the require thickness of the base supporting the tracks, at elevation.

Then there's another issue.........did you notice the high-voltage Hydro Pylon just beyond the Richmond Hill tracks? In the pic, below, the near-side pylon is shown, but the wires end up on the riverside just to the south.

There's not a very big clearance window between over the Richmond Hill tracks and under the Hydro lines.

Alignment from www.reliefline.ca

Vertical (depth) from www.reliefline.ca

 

[Steve X]

IMO the traditional TTC approach would be digging a very deep tunnel with a TBM under Liberty Village and the EX. It'll make a connection to LSW line very inconvenient and an expensive station.

Maybe this is more reasonable?

 

[steveintoronto]

...
Alignment from www.reliefline.ca

View attachment 189321

Vertical (depth) from www.reliefline.ca

View attachment 189322

Excellent reference! Any more direct a link than what's posted? Bear in mind that the task of bridge over to tunnel is even more complicated if the LSE RoW is shared to cross adjacent to it at East Harbour such that (quote Verster gist) "a cross platform interchange is possible". The Richmond Hill RoW coming up to join the LSE complicates things ever further, not to mention the berm swinging westward with the junction curve. It almost renders analysis moot, as Verster et al have just made it up on the fly. They (executives) don't have a clue as to the engineering challenge.

Notice how Michael Lindsay is conveniently closeted away? Meantime, the bullhorn brigade is free to make statements like:
Taking over TTC subway would be ‘quite straightforward,’ says Metrolinx CEO
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...quite-straightforward-says-metrolinx-ceo.html

 

[muller877]

On what basis did you figure out the required clearance for the Richmond Hill GO Corridor?

Perhaps my math is off...........

But I'm getting a number closer to 14% grade.

Keep in mind the require thickness of the base supporting the tracks, at elevation.

Then there's another issue.........did you notice the high-voltage Hydro Pylon just beyond the Richmond Hill tracks? In the pic, below, the near-side pylon is shown, but the wires end up on the riverside just to the south.

There's not a very big clearance window between over the Richmond Hill tracks and under the Hydro lines.

Alignment from www.reliefline.ca

With the relief line now going towards towards the rail ROW the alignment will be going SW (vs due west). About double the length to get to the tracks.

I took the heights from BurlOak. Plus the embankment height from the Corktown Commons details.

 

[Northern Light]

With the relief line now going towards towards the rail ROW the alignment will be going SW (vs due west). About double the length to get to the tracks.

I took the heights from BurlOak. Plus the embankment height from the Corktown Commons details.

His numbers are problematic. Particularly the depth assumption immediately prior to a portal; his clearance assumption over the tracks is fine, give or take that hydro issue I mentioned.

But the FPL isn't exactly 4M, and that excludes the current trees and park infrastructure, which would presumably be removed in this scheme?; If not, problems would really abound.

Suffice to say, this is much more challenging that some of you seem to think; and that's IF you're willing to destroy the park.

Virtually nothing is impossible. Some things are just incredibly bad ideas.

 

[steveintoronto]

Some things are just incredibly bad ideas.

All Verster et al would have to do is produce some engineering drawings and analysis. Since they don't exist outside of what the TTC has done, then it's pure fantasy on Verster's and others part. The Metrolinx Wish List keeps growing.

How about taking the line to Ontario Place, eh? lol...ha hah hah oh...my aching kidneys...and then extend it to Coney Island from there. Why not?

 

[Rainforest]

All Verster et al would have to do is produce some engineering drawings and analysis.

Presumably they will have to perform the actual engineering studies at some point. Many of the proposals / wild guesses currently on the table, will go away as either impossible or not cost-effective.

Just wondering, will such studies begin only after the 3 "funding partners" confirm the funding? Or, is the federal funding conditional on a certain level of engineering analysis being done already?

 

[Northern Light]

Excellent reference! Any more direct a link than what's posted?

Your wish is........................

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/relief-line-epr/appendix/Appendix%203-1_Relief%20Line%20South%20Horizontal%20and%20Vertical%20Alignment.pdf

 

[steveintoronto]

Your wish is........................

Excellent! I can increase size many times to see the detail. I've downloaded the file again with a new title I can remember for later reference. Those drawings speak volumes.

Just wondering, will such studies begin only after the 3 "funding partners" confirm the funding? Or, is the federal funding conditional on a certain level of engineering analysis being done already?

This is an incredibly good question for many reasons, the wildly incessant demands for the Feds to blindly commit being just one, but also it raises some serious questions about the InfraBank, as to what their requirements are...or not, and who backstops them? And since they have skin in the game, how much power will their appointed Board have over the entire project?

There's a whole lot of fodder there for some intrepid journalist sleuthing to investigate. And will...