Toronto Lower Don Lands Redevelopment | ?m | ?s | Waterfront Toronto

...conversely, if they where named as such from the beginning, we would unlikely have trouble pronouncing it now. /shrug
 
Northern Light said:
I concur, but would go a touch further and say that its important to choose a name that an English language speaker could phonetically sound out.

Toronto is fairly straight forward, and note that we anglicized the spelling from Tkaronto which would not be intuitive to an English speaker.

Likewise, Canada is derived from Kanata though that would seem straight forward to sound out.

But let's have another look at Mississauga, shall we?

In its original language the name is Misi-zaagiing

I fail to understand why we are adopting names that aren't easy to say, using the spelling of a language most don't speak.

We can put the original spelling of the original language in the fine print; but we ought to aim for a name that will be easily said and widely adopted.
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I agree with your sentiments entirely. Who decides this naming business ? And why do we really need another name for the area in question. Has there been any public input on this ? The naming of Sankofa Square should have been lesson enough.
 
Parkdalian said:
I doubt that locals will still call it "Villiers Island" because most people wouldn't have any clue that is its temporary name - it only officially became an island in the last few months.

I like the new name! People can say "Tecumseth" and "Mississauga" and heck "Toronto" - we'll get used to "Ookwemin Minising"

(I do think people might mispronounce that first syllable as "Ooo" instead of "oh," though)
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Perhaps it could be written as Ōkwemin Minising. After all, Māori uses macrons and such names with macrons are common throughout Aotearoa (aka New Zealand).

Macron (diacritic) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
I agree that the name will probably be mispronounced, but to touch on @afransen point on the 6 syllable name, "Minising" roughly means island (Ojibwe dictionary), while "Ookwemin" is what means black cherry tree (Ojibwe dictionary). It's likely that most people will simply reduce the name to just Ookwemin.


NB: To add since @Johnny Au posted as I was writing this message, the macron could be used, but that would likely be part of a larger discussion regarding the orthography (how to write) of the Anishinaabemowin/Ojibwemowin languages
 
ethan.l.cecc said:
I agree that the name will probably be mispronounced, but to touch on @afransen point on the 6 syllable name, "Minising" roughly means island (Ojibwe dictionary), while "Ookwemin" is what means black cherry tree (Ojibwe dictionary). It's likely that most people will simply reduce the name to just Ookwemin.


NB: To add since @Johnny Au posted as I was writing this message, the macron could be used, but that would likely be part of a larger discussion regarding the orthography (how to write) of the Anishinaabemowin/Ojibwemowin language
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We all learned to say "Eh-toh-bee-koh" from Etobicoke, so hopefully the good people of Toronto can at least learn to say "Oh-kway-min".
 
When companies launch a new mouthwash brand they’ll go through extensive market testing and research to see how well it’ll get picked up verbally, whether it’ll market well, how it will look on adverts of different sizes, and in different light conditions etc. just a rigorous selection process.

It doesn’t seem like we take any such practical steps for our renaming.

Does anyone know of any practical requirements for municipal naming? Like, is there a max character limit for street signs? Consideration of way finding? Do they empanel a group of multicultural citizens to weigh in on it, see if there’s any meanings in other languages. I’d like to think they at least figure out if we’re naming something after a horrid person (oops, Rob Ford Stadium, how’d that get here)

I do agree that folks are going to rename it something else. What? No clue. Me personally- I still call it skydome, Dundas square and even struggle with Scotiabank Centre (ACC just feels way less corporate and bland). I’m also likely six names behind on Hummingbird

I do wonder if in 20yrs we’ll have the name down pat (even slightly adjusted), or look upon this as a period of overcorrection where we did everything superficial to honour the indigenous people except actually help them.
 
I'll point out the "Villiers Island" is five syllables, yet somehow that's ok. Yet Minising Ookwemin is way too long? I'd argue it's more because it is unfamiliar to us, because we don't see many Anishabe/Ojibwe words on signs, or the ones we do are familiar (Nipissing, Temagami, Chi Chimaun).
 
Sometimes understanding the pronunciation of a name is breaking it down into familiar words we can associate with, In this case, Ookwemin Minising becomes "Okay Min Minny Sing"...which is kinda catchy, IMO. Then tweak it back up to it's correct pronunciation, (Oh-kway-min Min-nih-sing), particularly with the first part of the name....

...and Bob's your uncle? Well, that's depending on how well we accept the new name here outside it's pronunciation.
 
Yes, people will call things whatever they want - we still say "Skydome" and most people just call it "Pearson" and not "Toronto Pearson International Airport." The pronunciation of Toronto is very different than the Indigenous languages it is based upon (hence why people want the name to be "Tkaronto") - and it is even different than it is spelled: most of us say "Tuh-ranna" and not "Toe-ron-to." People will invent short forms for difficult-to-pronounce names, like how "Roncesvalles Street" is called "Roncey." People will call the place whatever works for them - we don't need to worry too much about that.

But part of Reconciliation is about just putting more names from Indigenous languages onto things, and people just getting used to it. If the concern that "people will not know how to pronounce it" is used as a cudgel, we will never give things Indigenous names.

People will feel uncomfortable and annoyed at first, and then it will just become part of the city, and an odd form of mispronunciation will stick to it, but we will have that place name to remind us of our history. (Something many people on this site seem to care about in other contexts...)
 
Parkdalian said:
But part of Reconciliation is about just putting more names from Indigenous languages onto things, and people just getting used to it. If the concern that "people will not know how to pronounce it" is used as a cudgel, we will never give things Indigenous names.
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Again, Toronto, Mississauga, and Canada are all indigenous names. Its merely that we anglicized the spelling/pronunciation. We don't lack for indigenous names

I have no objection to more; we have plenty of generic, uninteresting names that could exit.

I simply want some sense applied so that they are adopted.

****

I will, however, go on to say that real reconciliation is equalizing healthcare, educational, employment and wealth attainment outcomes for the First Nations community. None of which will be furthered by a symbolic gesture. That's not an argument against some symbolism here and there; just to say its not where priority should be placed.
 
Northern Light said:
Again, Toronto, Mississauga, and Canada are all indigenous names. Its merely that we anglicized the spelling/pronunciation. We don't lack for indigenous names

I have no objection to more; we have plenty of generic, uninteresting names that could exit.

I simply want some sense applied so that they are adopted.

****

I will, however, go on to say that real reconciliation is equalizing healthcare, educational, employment and wealth attainment outcomes for the First Nations community. None of which will be furthered by a symbolic gesture. That's not an argument against some symbolism here and there; just to say its not where priority should be placed.
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What's the "some sense" you want applied? Is there a clear criteria?
 
DSC said:
Two hundred years ago, the area now called the Port Lands, was one of the largest freshwater marshes on Lake Ontario. Elders in the Indigenous Advisory Circle recalled that this area had an abundance of Ookwemin “black cherry” trees that grew throughout the waterfront area.
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Those elders must be really old.

christiesplits said:
It won't stop it from being nicknamed "Lower Riverside" or "East Distillery" by the time the MLS listings pop up.

Is there a plan to rename the neighbouring McCleary District?
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I started out life in what is now dubbed the 'Upper Beaches'. I don't think I ever saw water.
 
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Parkdalian said:
What's the "some sense" you want applied? Is there a clear criteria?
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Either pronounceable to an English language speaker as-is; or anglicize the spelling such than an English speaker is able to say that word.

I noted this difference with Mississauga in a post up thread.

From said post:

1730563377519.png

Here we see the word was modified to make it more intuitive/easy to pronounce in English.

It should be said, we do this with every other language in the world, and most do that to English words/names as well, they translate them for local speakers.

Canada is spelt Καναδάς in Greek, Kanada in Czech and Croat and German, among others, In Russian, our country is Канада, while the Japanese call our home: カナダ

They don't attempt to use our alphabet or only use our pronunciation to the extent locals can get their tongue around it.

*****

Meanwhile, we call Firenze, Florence, we call Nederland, Netherlands, and we call Deutchland...........Germany..... wow that one is close... LOL

Hell, we even turned Wien into Vienna.

But again, others do this to our place names so they can say them, its just practical, that's all.
 
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