Toronto Lower Don Lands Redevelopment | ?m | ?s | Waterfront Toronto

one of the things I hate about arguments like these, is that it starts to show me how conservatism starts pulling progressive minded people who feel alienated by their movement. And nobody who sees themselves as progressive wants to become ‘that guy’

The internet is just a big mess where everyone is trying to iteratively reason out all existence, with each person demanding things be exactly how they see the world. It’s ugly and not as productive as the tonnage of words might provide.

But stuff like this and the arguments against my pov make me entirely cynical. Apart from naming things after horrid idiots like Rob Ford, I don’t care where the name comes from. If you want to name your baby Apple, by all means. Rename everything with indigenous language; But I’m a dork in a forum of dorks who will spend days arguing about the finer points of wayfinding in PATH, but won’t allow critical discussion about the practicality of these names.

Which is I think where people’s cynicism comes in. Because it all starts to feel performative.

And like being a Marvel fan, I don’t even want to contribute to any criticism to something, because I know there will be some truly garbage racist people who’ll just feel empowered by that and use my argument for their bs.

I dunno man, I don’t study indigenous languages, but could there not have been a version of or another word that works in a more practical fashion?

And also, I hope everyone who’s coming out hard in defense of the name is paying to subscribe to Crave and CBC gem and watching all the great indigenous shows they stream. You can really support indigenous creators and artists this way.
 
Also, something I’m trying to catch myself on, that others might want to as well… I’m criticizing the practicality of the name, and not making fun of the name itself. That’s someone else’s language, just like to many around the world- English is.
 
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Parkdalian said:
I doubt that locals will still call it "Villiers Island" because most people wouldn't have any clue that is its temporary name - it only officially became an island in the last few months.

I like the new name! People can say "Tecumseth" and "Mississauga" and heck "Toronto" - we'll get used to "Ookwemin Minising"

(I do think people might mispronounce that first syllable as "Ooo" instead of "oh," though)
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Northern Light said:
I concur, but would go a touch further and say that its important to choose a name that an English language speaker could phonetically sound out.

Toronto is fairly straight forward, and note that we anglicized the spelling from Tkaronto which would not be intuitive to an English speaker.

Likewise, Canada is derived from Kanata though that would seem straight forward to sound out.

But let's have another look at Mississauga, shall we?

In its original language the name is Misi-zaagiing

I fail to understand why we are adopting names that aren't easy to say, using the spelling of a language most don't speak.

We can put the original spelling of the original language in the fine print; but we ought to aim for a name that will be easily said and widely adopted.
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Can't see this ending up as anything other than Ookwemin. 3 syllables, and it's still acceptable to call a place "Black Cherry (trees)" especially with Cherry street running right there. There was definitely a lot of thought that went into picking the name.
 
My bingo card is starting to get filled up here...

...too difficult to pronounce; we've go plenty of indigenous names already; it's Sankofa Square all over again; the symbolism is really meaningless; people will just call it Villiers Island anyways; they didn't consult the public about this; it's more than 4 syllables...

...to me, it's a thoughtful name. We should stick with it, learn to adapt, evolve and move on.
 
ben.thebean1 said:
Can't see this ending up as anything other than Ookwemin. 3 syllables, and it's still acceptable to call a place "Black Cherry (trees)" especially with Cherry street running right there. There was definitely a lot of thought that went into picking the name.
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Minising is more catchy, pleasant-sounding if one's speaking without knowledge of the language, better flowing, and easily broken down into memorable syllables, even though it's topographically less relevant (just 'Island').

Mini-Sing or Mi-Nising. I think that'll be what unofficially catches on aside from the rather generic 'Lower Donlands/Portlands' as an umbrella term for the area.
 
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While there's no denying there are larger issues to address too, why does an Indigenous name for something need to be immediately pronounceable to an anglophone? Does not reconciliation include learning to do things the Indigenous way or at least seeing things from an Indigenous point-of-view from time-to-time?

I feel the group tasked with coming up with the name was thoughtfully chosen & they also spent a fair bit of time thoughtfully choosing the name. Despite superficial similarities, this is unlike the Sankofa case in my eyes (which was criticized for NOT consulting with Indigenous people among other things).

I can't speak for others, but when someone asks me to do something that's not really that hard and would mean a lot to them, I tend to feel that consideration and general politeness should prevail and therefore I should just do the thing. Others will do as they do, but I'm going to attempt to say it as close to correctly as I can.
 
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Northern Light said:
Either pronounceable to an English language speaker as-is; or anglicize the spelling such than an English speaker is able to say that word.
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I think defining what is "pronounceable" to an English language speaker is a pretty challenging thing to define. English spelling is not consistent. And I think that "Anglicizing" something ... is the opposite point of Reconciliation. Also, who determines if an English speaker is "able to say that word"? There are many English speakers on this forum who say that they can pronounce the word as is.

All of this to say that while I think that the wider public should be able to pronounce new names, there is no clear criteria for what is or isn't "pronounceable." That means that particular criterion shouldn't have veto power over other criteria. As @Natika33 points out, I'm sure the people choosing the name put a lot of thought into the things that you seem to feel they have completely ignored.

I would also argue that Ookwemin Minising name seems to meet your first criteria apart from the first syllable. Not sure why the first syllable is a deal-killer.
 
Parkdalian said:
I think defining what is "pronounceable" to an English language speaker is a pretty challenging thing to define. English spelling is not consistent. And I think that "Anglicizing" something ... is the opposite point of Reconciliation. Also, who determines if an English speaker is "able to say that word"? There are many English speakers on this forum who say that they can pronounce the word as is.

All of this to say that while I think that the wider public should be able to pronounce new names, there is no clear criteria for what is or isn't "pronounceable." That means that particular criterion shouldn't have veto power over other criteria. As @Natika33 points out, I'm sure the people choosing the name put a lot of thought into the things that you seem to feel they have completely ignored.
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I find this to be contrary to how virtually every culture, ethnicity and nation addresses language.

Parkdalian said:
I would also argue that Ookwemin Minising name seems to meet your first criteria apart from the first syllable. Not sure why the first syllable is a deal-killer.
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I don't recall saying anything about any particular syllable here.
 
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jxmith_ said:
one of the things I hate about arguments like these, is that it starts to show me how conservatism starts pulling progressive minded people who feel alienated by their movement. And nobody who sees themselves as progressive wants to become ‘that guy’
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Thanks for expressing this - I think you are hitting on what some people feel nervous about.

I would argue that the discussion here has been particularly civil and that no one is calling anyone names or what-have-you. It is important to have discussions like this. There is unfortunately a tendency on the wider Internet to think that if someone expresses any slightly different idea about a topic, they need to be called out/canceled - but I for one, do not believe this. This forum is a place of learning, and a place to get exposed to ideas that might change your point of view about things.

It's okay to say you don't like a name! It's just a name. And if you have some particular rational reasons for it, that's great. That's where the discussion happens. I think Northern Light has a lot of great insights about how the city works, but I also disagree with them about some things. That's okay. That feels like the reason this forum exists.
 
Northern Light said:
I find this to be contrary to how virtually every culture, ethnicity and nation addresses language.
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Not sure what this means. Once again, English spelling does not provide a consistent understanding of pronunciation. Every time I see "Queens Quay" I have to remind myself the second word is pronounced "Key" not (as it should be!!!) "Kway." According to your criteria, should we rename "Queens Quay" "Queens Key"?

Northern Light said:
I don't recall saying anything about any particular syllable here.
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No, I said it: "I would also argue that Ookwemin Minising name seems to meet your first criteria apart from the first syllable."
 
Parkdalian said:
Not sure what this means. Once again, English spelling does not provide a consistent understanding of pronunciation. Every time I see "Queens Quay" I have to remind myself the second word is pronounced "Key" not (as it should be!!!) "Kway." According to your criteria, should we rename "Queens Quay" "Queens Key"?
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I remember one time taking the streetcar a while ago and these English guys, like literally from England, thought it was pronounced “queue”.
 
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