mdrejhon
Senior Member
And the Scarborough Cost Overrun Nightmare.
Metrolinx is in the driver's seat, at the moment, it seems. Accelerated GO expansions, GO RER, ECLRT, UPX, Hurontario....
Metrolinx is in the driver's seat, at the moment, it seems. Accelerated GO expansions, GO RER, ECLRT, UPX, Hurontario....
Allandale25
Senior Member
Thank you. Like I said, happy to be proven wrong and I was. The previous council certainly took two different positions in a very short amount of time, but hey, that's what Toronto did on Scarborough so it's happened before.
We'll see what happens next. Edit: but just to clarify, I wasn't saying you were claiming there wasn't a vote to prevent LRT downtown. My issue was with the word "surface", which has now been cleared up.
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Just able to read through the comments now. One of the aspects that I think is interesting is dropping the municipal funding component. I wonder if there was some kind of a deal struck, whereby the Province would pay for the Hurontario LRT, but the MiWay and Züm BRT infrastructure will be built without Provincial help. For MiWay, thinking specifically about the Dundas BRT.
DonValleyRainbow
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If anything is doomed, its the typical style of procurement the City and the TTC went with on the Spadina extension. I'd expect to see Hurontario-Main LRT go through the AFP process provided by Infrastructure Ontario, and that way any risk of cost and schedule overruns are transferred to the private sector. My question if anyone could confirm that it will indeed go through that process is still outstanding.
Markster
Senior Member
Between 2005 and 2009 is when there were ongoing consultations regarding pinpointing the routing and technology, as well as formulation of business plans to support the investment. By 2009, the plan solidified into something roughly 95% similar to what is being built.
As for the 5 years from 2009-2014, with all the elections, opinion articles, lobbying, grandstanding politicians, and fears of taxes... to put it extremely bluntly...
It was fucking nailbiting.
TOareaFan
Superstar
they didn't really. committee of council is designed for matters to be dealt with sans-mayor. It can't actually "do" anything, only recommend things to full council. Unfortunately, given the political climate in Brampton at the time, it was being manipulated to recommend things that her opponents on council knew she would hate and fight.
So, knowing she was very pro LRT, they made a big deal (as did the Star and Guardian) of the unanimous vote by CofC to kill the LRT through downtown. But CofC has no power to do such a thing.
It is very likely that what she did in that closed door session was read the riot act and clearly inform councillors of what such a rejection would mean....and ask them if their personal battles with her were worth that. Then worked on that 6 part resolution that let them save face while simply deferring the decision.
Given her other issues at the time, it is not surprising that the council decision to carefully defer received a lot less press coverage than the previous week's unanimous vote to, seemingly, kill the thing.
The tendering method used in Ottawa for the Confederation Line I think is far superior to the method used for the Spadina Extension. The entire project was tendered as a single package, with one bidder winning the construction and maintenance contract for the entire line, including track, tunnel, stations, and trains. Obviously Metrolinx has a larger LRT order on the books right now, so the trains may not be needed as part of the tender package, but the process is certainly one to emulate, IMO.
Allandale25
Senior Member
Appreciate the additional commentary and opinion. I had friends at that meeting who reported back some of what the Councillors (some former, some current) said/points raised so I do have a sense of what took place as well.
We'll just have to see what happens next.
Toffy
Active Member
The delays incurred on the TYSSE had nothing to do with how the project was tendered. They were tendered by the traditional design-bid-build approach that's used for most public construction projects, whereby the detailed design is done before the project goes out to tender. The design-bid-build approach can still employ the RFQ/RFP process to screen potential bidders.
The TTC split up all the contracts into more manageable pieces to keep up the competition. Larger contracts lead to less companies being able to take on the work, thereby reducing competition.
What went wrong with the TYYSE project was the project management, which was being performed in-house by the TTC*, who didn't effectively mitigate (as construction manager) some problems that arose with Ellis-Don, OHL and Walsh.
*I read that Morrison Hershfield was hired by the TTC for construction management services in 2010, although I don't know to what degree. Perhaps only for the tunneling and advance clearing contracts.
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DonValleyRainbow
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I don't buy that the delays had nothing to do with it. The contractor would face penalties for schedule overruns, and therefore has more incentive to pull out all the stops to stay on schedule.
And then there's the cost overruns. Opposed to an AFP process, the taxpayer footed the bill for the cost overruns. Again, the private sector would foot the bill for those in an AFP process.
Another reason I believe its likely to be applied to the HMLRT is how much Del Duca and Wynne chided Toronto for not using it when the news broke on TYSSE. The province is footing 100% of the bill on HMLRT, and Metrolinx is taking the lead. They will take direction from the government.
Edward
Senior Member
Any idea what type of vehicles they will be using here? The same as those on Eglinton?
nfitz
Superstar
That's a likely bet, given they didn't cancel the order for the 48 cars for the Scarborough line, on the basis they could be used elsewhere.
Has there been any indication how many are needed for Hurontario?
crs1026
Superstar
The thing with AFP is - the transfer of risk has a price. The contracted price rises with AFP because the contractor builds in more more contingency. This applies to schedule as well as monetary cost. The result may be a more 'truthful' pricetag as well as a more realistic schedule.... the reality is, all projects face unforeseens and if you set too aggressive targets you will certainly be disappointed. Would we have been happier if TYSSE had been priced and scheduled under an AFP format? The whole project could have lost support during its 'fingernail biting' phase. Would we have been happier if TTC more aggressively held TYSSE contractors' feet to the fire? Some may have been over their heads from the start, and would have folded if the penalties were too severe.
With respect to Hurontario, Metrolinx appears to be taking a cautious approach and not promising quick delivery. In the long run, that's prudent. Better to set realistic expectations now (that may disappoint the more eager observers) than risk a repeat of the embarrassment TTC suffered with TYSsE. What needs to happen this time is a much more detailed and transparent public oversight process. Those of us watching TYSSE from the sidewalk knew all along that the project must have been taking hits....the problem was TTC didn't come clean about them until just recently. The glowing progress reports must have had some integrity flaws to them. ML should do better than TTC did.
- Paul
With respect to Hurontario, Metrolinx appears to be taking a cautious approach and not promising quick delivery. In the long run, that's prudent. Better to set realistic expectations now (that may disappoint the more eager observers) than risk a repeat of the embarrassment TTC suffered with TYSsE. What needs to happen this time is a much more detailed and transparent public oversight process. Those of us watching TYSSE from the sidewalk knew all along that the project must have been taking hits....the problem was TTC didn't come clean about them until just recently. The glowing progress reports must have had some integrity flaws to them. ML should do better than TTC did.
- Paul
wopchop
Building Toronto
A conglomerate bidding on an IO project under the AFP model would simply have more schedule slack, and more contingency to absorb unforseen costs. Sure, there is a lot of incentive to meet the targeted dates, but there is also a lot more leeway on the contractor's part in their ability to do that.
Even on TYSSE, there are likely targeted deadlines that the contractors are contractually obligated to meet. The problem is likely that the TTC is (or was, now) acting as project manager overseeing a number of projects and separate contractors, and likely failed in this duty, and is itself at fault for the delays (the death at York University excluded, of course).
I've worked on many AFP and non-AFP projects, and even on non-AFP model projects, we generally still pay penalties for missing substantial completion dates.
Mr.Tang
Active Member
Perhaps Metrolinx being the favorite child in terms of funding (if it persists) may make the TTC slightly more likely to consider the sensible act of merger on day.