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SmartTrack (Proposed)

ssiguy2 said:
This new plan is an excellent one and unlike the standard DRL, this one can actually get built.

Trudeau will NEVER gives a dime of federal money for the DRL. There are huge infrastructure funds about to be released and they will be on a first-come first-serve basis. Toronto should drop all talk of it's stupid tunnelled DRL plan and put all resources towards the ST subway. It can start construction immediately and that is the only way it will get any money from the feds. These new funds aren't just for long term investment but also short term economic boosts and waiting 10 years for routing, community consultations, and environmental reviews doesn't cut the mustard.

This is the right plan at the right time and Toronto should put all it's financial, political, planning, and intellectual capitol into this project and within 5 years Toronto could see a new LRT to Pearson and a downtown subway.

Trudeau will not wait for Toronto to get it's act in gear and if this doesn't get built then Toronto can forget blaming the feds or Queen's Park and have only itself to blame.
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This "excellent" plan still does not actually solve many of the city's transit problems that require the Relief Line.

In 2031, the entire stretch between Eglinton and Dundas station on Line 1 will be over-capacity. SmartTrack will only relieve Bloor-Yonge station by 4%, which is nothing. GO-RER and SmartTrack plans will put our newly upgraded Union station to capacity. Our streetcar routes, especially the Queen and King streetcar routes are over-capacity, the 501 King streetcar is sitting at 64,600 daily riders in 2014, over 20k more daily riders than the Sheppard line. Eglinton Station on Line 1 in 2031 with its tiny platform will rival Finch Station for 3rd busiest station in our subway system.

We have real, legitimate, capacity problems that we are purposefully ignoring.
 
WislaHD said:
SmartTrack will only relieve Bloor-Yonge station by 4%, which is nothing.
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Is that based on the original Smart Track plan with 15 minute frequencies? I'd expect to see that number change under the revised plan with 5-10 minute frequencies. At 5 minutes, I think the number would be significantly different.
 
Tuscani01 said:
Is that based on the original Smart Track plan with 15 minute frequencies? I'd expect to see that number change under the revised plan with 5-10 minute frequencies. At 5 minutes, I think the number would be significantly different.
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Why? Seems unlikely that a great percentage of people heading downtown are coming all the way from Kennedy to south of Front street the first place.

It's way too far east to relieve Yonge. And if they were, it takes them all the way down to south of Esplanade - which isn't where most people are going.
 
nfitz said:
Why? Seems unlikely that a great percentage of people heading downtown are coming all the way from Kennedy to south of Front street the first place.

It's way too far east to relieve Yonge. And if they were, it takes them all the way down to south of Esplanade - which isn't where most people are going.
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And the ones that are are pretty much taking GO train already. A monthly Metropass is $140, and GO train from there to Union is only around $180 - not much more expensive.
 
This new plan improves frequencies to a point that if you're at a ST stop, such as Kennedy, there will be plenty of incentives to use this service instead of the subway. If there's stops at Gerrard, Queen East and King West (Liberty Village), it can draw some riders from the streetcars. This, plus the King Street transit mall, are parts of a complete short-to-medium term plan to provide some subway relief (others include ATC, off-peak fares). But it's not enough. The DRL is essential for medium-to-long-term relief.
 
nfitz said:
Why? Seems unlikely that a great percentage of people heading downtown are coming all the way from Kennedy to south of Front street the first place.

It's way too far east to relieve Yonge. And if they were, it takes them all the way down to south of Esplanade - which isn't where most people are going.
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But the trip from Kennedy to Union wouldn't be that long, or crowded, meaning you can just hop onto the subway from Union or walk to your final destination from there. At 15 minute frequencies, I can see why no one would want to do that... but when you have a greater chance of catching a train right away, the option becomes more attractive.
 
Tuscani01 said:
But the trip from Kennedy to Union wouldn't be that long, or crowded, meaning you can just hop onto the subway from Union or walk to your final destination from there. At 15 minute frequencies, I can see why no one would want to do that... but when you have a greater chance of catching a train right away, the option becomes more attractive.
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If there is fare integration (meaning you don't have to pay another fare to jump onto the subway at Union), then sure. I still have seen no indication that this will be true.
 
Tuscani01 said:
But the trip from Kennedy to Union wouldn't be that long, or crowded, meaning you can just hop onto the subway from Union or walk to your final destination from there.
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How wouldn't it be that long? The GO travel time from Kennedy to Union is already longer than the TTC travel time from Kennedy to Yonge-Bloor.

If you are already at Kennedy and work at 1 Yonge Street perhaps ... but if you are at Victoria Park? Or Pape? Or Woodbine?

The busiest downtown station for arrivals in AM peak is Dundas. Even starting at Kennedy, the travel time from Kennedy to Union on the existing GO service is already 24 minutes when it stops at Danforth - can you imagine how long it will take when they add Scarborough, Gerrard, and Lever? Even if they gain a bit with electrification, it's unlikely to beat 24 minutes, once the extra stations are added.

Meanwhile, the current TTC subway travel time from Kennedy to Yonge is only 22 minutes. Given how long the walk is at Union, and how short it is at Bloor-Yonge, then I can't see many people changing to a train at Kennedy that only runs once every 5 minutes, and then requires a long walk at Union, and then get on the subway again!

Once the subway is extended to Scarborough Centre and Sheppard/McCowan, I wouldn't be surprised if there's even less incentive to change at Kennedy, once you are already on a train. I can see the combination of SmartTrack and the Danforth subway extension would make crowding at Yonge-Bloor worse than it is now - not better.
 
Tuscani01 said:
Is that based on the original Smart Track plan with 15 minute frequencies? I'd expect to see that number change under the revised plan with 5-10 minute frequencies. At 5 minutes, I think the number would be significantly different.
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No. The projection is based on 5 to 10 min frequencies, and with ST operating in both the Richmond Hill and Stouffville corridors.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
I agree with everything else you say. But how would ST make BY Station crowding worsE?
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Three ways:
  1. Those currently taking the SRT or bus from various point in Scarborough already have to change at Kennedy. If they are already on the subway train arriving at Kennedy, there's a lot less incentive to get off, and go wait for a less frequent train, with a marginal savings in time.

  2. The subway extension will make transit trips from parts of Scarborough significantly faster and more convenient than they are now. This will increase ridership (for both, but will increase those changing at Bloor-Yonge).

  3. Population grown in the decade before it all opens, and increasing road congestion, will naturally increase ridership by then.
 
Tuscani01 said:
Is that based on the original Smart Track plan with 15 minute frequencies? I'd expect to see that number change under the revised plan with 5-10 minute frequencies. At 5 minutes, I think the number would be significantly different.
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This is based on GO-RER+ figures studied by Metrolinx. They show that GO-RER+ will only take away 400 people from Bloor-Yonge station at peak period.

That option studied by Metrolinx is essentially what SmartTrack has evolved to. Under GO-RER+ the combined frequency of different branches of GO-RER will provide close to 7 minute frequencies in downtown. SmartTrack as described in the Moore article might have 2 more trains per peak hour (if that is even possible) to reach 5 minute frequencies, that seems to be the only difference. (And I doubt would be too impactful on ridership numbers)

The question is, did Metrolinx's GO-RER+ factor in fare integration? Will SmartTrack include fare integration? How much would that fare cost? Those things could have an impact on ridership.
 
nfitz said:
The busiest downtown station for arrivals in AM peak is Dundas. Even starting at Kennedy, the travel time from Kennedy to Union on the existing GO service is already 24 minutes when it stops at Danforth - can you imagine how long it will take when they add Scarborough, Gerrard, and Lever? Even if they gain a bit with electrification, it's unlikely to beat 24 minutes, once the extra stations are added.
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I wouldn't be surprised if the time is shorter than 24 minutes once the line is electrified and those stops are added. GO schedules are heavily padded due to their 15 minute service guarantee.
 
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