SmartTrack (Proposed)

[mdrejhon]

In fairness to all sides:

I think there probably would be multiple rounds of funding from Feds for transit initiatives. My impression is that ST enhancements to GO RER won't get the first round of fed funding, but would easily get a subsequent round. ST enhancements to GO RER could begin before end of Trudeau's first 4 years, and be well. There's time to accelerate some EA's so that 'sections' are considered 100% shovel ready (by fed standards) well before 2018.

One thorny issue is the UPX section, the "minimum-work-to-shovel-ready" section but also the most politically controversial (due to an upset public about UPX ridership). Analyzing UPX ridership for 2016 will be critical to the direction of this closest-to-shovel-ready section.

Deciding to run GO RER/ST separately of UPX, or the debate of deciding whether or not merge UPX and GO RER/ST could also be a shortcut to accelerate to the "Shovel Ready" definition that fed considers (Environmental Assessments), but it is a whole different ball of wax inside a different Pandora's Box.

2016-2017 will be exciting years for transit debates all over the place.
Some will be maddening but should be far more productive than Ford years.

 

[ssiguy2]

When I said shovel ready in 4 months I meant 4 months after the contracts go out so they know the location of stations ect and not 4 months from now..............admittedly I should have been more clear.

Like I said there maybe debate on where some stations will be but Kennedy and Mt.Dennis could be put out to tender as soon as funding is secured as well as a maintenance facility and electrification.

On another note............ I mentioned that the line will probably use the standard TTC cars but I mean by appearance {both inside and out} so that unless you were looking or were a transit geek like all us pathetic fools, they would look exactly the same. The only visible difference is that they would have overhead wires but to the average TTC rider it would be just another subway line. I think it would be important for them to be subway cars looking like the current ones in use so they can be easily identifiable and recognizable from GO/RER/UPX.

Overhead catenary would not only be easier to set up but safer and more reliable. Safer because they run on standard NA rail gauge but along a GO corridor so it makes access to those GO tracks easier by staff but without the dangers of electrocution by the third rail. More reliable because for predominately at grade systems there is a bigger chance of damage to the third rail due to ice and snow.

Overhead powered subways are rare in NA and I believe Cleveland is the only full subway using such power supply. They are, however, very common throughout the world and systems like Barcelona, Hong Kong, Singapore, Shanghai, and Delhi run exclusively overhead powered Metro and most of Tokyo's system is as well.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

When I said shovel ready in 4 months I meant 4 months after the contracts go out so they know the location of stations ect and not 4 months from now..............admittedly I should have been more clear.

What do you mean "when the contract go out".

The environmental assessments and much design work is completed before the Request for Proposal from construction firms is released. This stage is essentially a call for anyone who believes they can construct the project. The firms will come back with competitive bids, and after a process we select the most qualified bidder. At that point the firms can begin construction immediately.

The RFP/RFQ process doesn't take very long, and I fail to see why you think the Relief Line would have a longer process than SmartTrack.

Like I said there maybe debate on where some stations will be but Kennedy and Mt.Dennis could be put out to tender as soon as funding is secured as well as a maintenance facility and electrification.

Planning work still needs to be done before the RFP is put out. RFP won't begin as soon as funding is secured, unless we're outsourcing 100% of the design work to an outside firm, which I don't believe is typical. Construction obviously can't begin until a significant portion of that work is complete.

Design work is what impedes the critical path. This work needs to be done. When you put the RFP out is irrelevant.

On another note............ I mentioned that the line will probably use the standard TTC cars but I mean by appearance {both inside and out} so that unless you were looking or were a transit geek like all us pathetic fools, they would look exactly the same. The only visible difference is that they would have overhead wires but to the average TTC rider it would be just another subway line. I think it would be important for them to be subway cars looking like the current ones in use so they can be easily identifiable and recognizable for GO/RER/UPX.

Spending billions for branding makes zero sense. The only person this benefits is John Tory. Commuters can very well understand that any train boarded between Mt. Dennis and Kennedy is TTC fare.

Overhead powered subways are rare in NA

I don't know of any mainline rail systems with frequent service (10 min or less service) referred to as subways or metro. The jurisdictions I'm familiar with seem to go out of their way to make a distinction between the two. Examples:
- U bahn v S bahn
- RER vs. Metro
- Subway vs. RER
- Underground vs Overground
- Metro/Subway vs. Commuter Rail

 

[nfitz]

The only transit project that is 100% shovel ready and not already started or scheduled (like Finch, Sheppard LRTs) is the Scarborough LRT replacement.

Finch West Phase 2 from Keele to Yonge. Sheppard East phase 2 from Conlins to Morningside, Eglinton Phase 2 from Mount Dennis to Renforth, East Bayfront, and the Scarborough-Malvern LRT (remember, they did complete the EA on that, anticipating funding with the other lines).

 

[kEiThZ]

Whether you agree with ST or not as a the route of a downtown subway you better understand the doing nothing is the only other option so get this DRL out of your head. Trudeau will, nor should he, fund a cent of the DRL.

There's two components to the infrastructure funding. Immediate projects and stable long term funding. The DRL could qualify for the latter. That said, the province will also be involved in this discussion. And I'd argue the only thing likely to get accelerated immediately is GO RER and electrification. It's the easiest to accelerate. And it offers the most political bang for the buck, as well as immediate jobs.

Some of the LRTs that have more detailed design done might move as well.

 

[kEiThZ]

The RFP/RFQ process doesn't take very long, and I fail to see why you think the Relief Line would have a longer process than SmartTrack.

I'd agree with him. DRL doesn't even have a preferred alignment yet. Let alone, any sort of all detailed design work. Add in the fact that SmartTrack would have lots of above ground stations and the DRL would need lots of underground stations, and its clear the timelines wouldn't be the same.

That said, the province is holding the cards on this one. And they don't care what Tory promised. If he's smart, he'll find a way to merge Smart Track into GO RER. And get onboard with fed funding coming down that track (pun intended). That's the politically feasible way he can delivery on Smart Track in his second term.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I'd agree with him. DRL doesn't even have a preferred alignment yet. Let alone, any sort of all detailed design work. Add in the fact that SmartTrack would have lots of above ground stations and the DRL would need lots of underground stations, and its clear the timelines wouldn't be the same.

That said, the province is holding the cards on this one. And they don't care what Tory promised. If he's smart, he'll find a way to merge Sm
art Track into GO RER. And get onboard with fed funding coming down that track (pun intended). That's the politically feasible way he can delivery on Smart Track in his second term.

SmartTrack does't have a preferred alignment either. City Planning is still evaluating where it should be. ST isn't close to even beginning design work. We're still trying to figure out what the concept is.

The Relief Line will obviously require more work, but City Planing has focused significantly more resources on RL than they are on ST.

 

[WislaHD]

Finch West Phase 2 from Keele to Yonge. Sheppard East phase 2 from Conlins to Morningside, Eglinton Phase 2 from Mount Dennis to Renforth, East Bayfront, and the Scarborough-Malvern LRT (remember, they did complete the EA on that, anticipating funding with the other lines).

The WWLRT as well.

Though I don't believe these EAs will be relevant for much longer...

 

[Hopkins123]

SmartTrack should be abandoned. Tory is looking really foolish trying to rationalize building something that directly competes with three separate rapid transit projects (the DRL, the Scarborough subway extension and the Eglinton Crosstown airport extension) for the same ridership.

 

[kEiThZ]

I'm not too sure ST would qualify for any accelerated federal funding either. Few projects in the GTA would. GO electrification is an easy one because there's a path to accelerate. Any brand new service/line like DRL and ST would be difficult. Even if ST might take a little less effort than the DRL. I just agree that ST would be less work. And cheaper (without the Eglinton tunnel).

I still think ST will be folded into GO's plans.

 

[salsa]

 

[Euphoria]

Okay, back to reality. The province and feds committed funding to ST. ST is a fraction of the cost of tunneling a subway, period. Be careful not to lose the plot of getting behind an affordable transit project that Tory received a mandate to implement in his election. Otherwise we'll get nothing. As long as the more pricey northern reaches of ST are put on hold , we could have ST in the core within the next decade. Please don't put forth pie in the sky notions of a DRL that will take time and energy away from getting anything realistic done. The costs of a DRL are astronomical by comparison. Later on, when the funds and political will are there, a plan for DRL can go forward that takes into account the transit needs of the day. I do think the Scarborough subway should be scrapped in a hurry to free up funds for additional projects. An LRT in Scarborough is plenty, and the savings could speed up construction of other projects. The debate should centre around the number and location of stops along the existing rail corridor that ST will follow. On the DRL thread, maybe funding models can be considered along with how the DRL would dovetail with ST. I feel very strongly that tunneling for a subway line like DRL should be coupled with and paid for by an underground toll highway like Paris's A86, perhaps one that runs south from Eglinton West station atop an Allen Expressway tunneled underground. Charge sky-high tolls a la Highway 407 and you have your capitol construction costs covered for the DRL tunneling. Do I think something like this could happen? No. We can't think outside the box and people expect us to build $10 billion subways without funding.

 

[Euphoria]

Also, the main reason we can't fold ST into GO plans is because ST is supposed to interface with TTC and use the same fare structure. That's one of its chief selling points. As for the gauge of the track or the look of the trains, why should the riders give a shit? Let the trains run on the gauge required and paint them like Red Rockets or not. That's not important. The importance is a needed expansion of the transit network that has its own right of way and doesn't require users to pay an additional fare.

 

[44 North]

I still think ST will be folded into GO's plans.

Someone posted this the other day, and I think it makes sense. IMO the single costliest component of ST will be an open cut along USRC and tunnel below Union Station - with a station platform and ped connection/s. It will probably cost well in excess of $1bn, and make up 1/3 of ST's overall cost (i.e - the quoted 'additional' $2-3.5bn above and beyond the Prov's RER plans).

My view is that initially this will be ID'd as Toronto's "SmartTrack" station - with significant local funds used for it. However during planning Mlinx will decide to piggyback onto construction of this station for RER, making it a massive three or four track station to relieve Union and USRC. Sometime during this process the truth will come out that ST is in fact RER, and the two will be seamlessly rolled into one. I think behind closed doors this is already agreed upon by Tory, Wynne, and Trudeau; and that they already have the photo-op date marked in their calendars. So basically all SmartTrack is is a financing tool to have the City of Toronto be a leading funding partner for the Prov's GO/RER plans - either directly (municipal taxes) or indirectly (i.e by diverting unrealized Relief Line funding toward RER).

 

[Euphoria]

In that case make all Toronto RER TTC (instead of GO), following the same TTC fare structure, even if at some point that means moving to a zones-type fee based on distance traveled, like London's tube.