SmartTrack (Proposed)

[Rainforest]

As Munro has said, SmartTrack is a real estate development scheme intended to enable commercial development in the 905, and somehow it became the job of Toronto taxpayers to shell out billions to do that.

Perhaps it was. But no more, with the actual Phase 1 operating only between Mt Dennis and Kennedy stations, well within Toronto and far from the borders.

Plus the LRT link to the airport, that the city and Metrolinx wanted to build for a long time, regardless of Tory's plans.

 

[crs1026]

I'm wondering what is magical about ST stopping at Mount Dennis. The fourth track is almost complete to bring it to Islington (assuming it will run on the same tracks as GO/UPX. Just a bit of track laying beyond St Dennis, plus stations. Huge potential for drawing ridership from North Etobicoke, plus Weston - meaning at that point UPX can close its stop there.

- Paul

 

[LNahid2000]

All the streetcar lines move in excess of 15 km/h, including in mixed traffic. A typical healthy person can walk 5 kph.

Not really.

I remember once I biked on Queen from The Beaches to Roncesvalles and passed 10 streetcars on my ride.

 

[44 North]

This thread moved a lot in the last few days, and it may've been brought up. But in the Oliver Moore article it says: [The latest estimate is that the proposed integration of SmartTrack would add $2-billion to $3.5-billion to the existing GO plans.]

This is a lot of additional money, so where is the brunt of this extra $2-3.5bn going exactly? Are they planning for an entirely separate corridor - fully grade-separated from existing GO trackage? In other words will this be a completely separate service/system from GO and RER (e.g using different rolling stock)?

I thought that Metrolinx was already planning a few new stations along with RER, so I don't fully get why so much more money will be required on top of the existing Metrolinx plans.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

This thread moved a lot in the last few days, and it may've been brought up. But in the Oliver Moore article it says: [The latest estimate is that the proposed integration of SmartTrack would add $2-billion to $3.5-billion to the existing GO plans.]

This is a lot of additional money, so where is the brunt of this extra $2-3.5bn going exactly? Are they planning for an entirely separate corridor - fully grade-separated from existing GO trackage? In other words will this be a completely separate service/system from GO and RER (e.g using different rolling stock)?

I thought that Metrolinx was already planning a few new stations along with RER, so I don't fully get why so much more money will be required on top of the existing Metrolinx plans.

Was wondering that as well. The scheme seems identical to RER, with the exception of 10 min frequencies at Mt Dennis and Kennedy.

I figure it's being spent on:
- Upgrading to the infrastructure to facilitate 10 min frequencies at Kennedy and Mt. Dennis
- Upgrade to Union Station to facilitate higher ridership. Both Union GO and Union TTC will likely need to be upgraded again
- Upgrade to Main Street Station to facilitate easier transfers. Perhaps an underground moving sidewalk? (>$100M)
- The additional stations

That's all I can think of. Upgrades to Kennedy and Mt Dennis for RER transfers are bundled with the ECLRT.

 

[44 North]

Was wondering that as well. The scheme seems identical to RER, with the exception of 10 min frequencies at Mt Dennis and Kennedy.

I figure it's being spent on:
- Upgrading to the infrastructure to facilitate 10 min frequencies at Kennedy and Mt. Dennis
- Upgrade to Union Station to facilitate higher ridership. Both Union GO and Union TTC will likely need to be upgraded again
- Upgrade to Main Street Station to facilitate easier transfers. Perhaps an underground moving sidewalk? (>$100M)
- The additional stations

That's all I can think of. Upgrades to Kennedy and Mt Dennis for RER transfers are bundled with the ECLRT.

Hm, I guess. And good point about an underground moving walkway between Main-Danforth, which I'm almost certain will be included in this plan. I recall Michael Schabas writing about this when he proposed and pushed a bs DRL replacement (i.e a Danforth-Union shuttle). But still, $2bn to 3.5bn is a lot of additional money for something that is damn near identical to the existing Metrolinx plans. If this is to be a different service, then perhaps there's to be a new yard to go along with its different rolling stock. That might help explain where a good chunk of this added money is to go. Otherwise, yeah I guess we have to wait on the reports.

 

[Rainforest]

^ Widening of the rail corridor may be needed in several places, and that could explain some of the costs.

Plus, the connection between the Lakeshore East corridor and the Uxbridge sub might have to be grade-separated, so that the westbound Lakeshore trains do not conflict with the northbound Uxbridge sub trains including SmartTrack.

 

[Rainforest]

I'm wondering what is magical about ST stopping at Mount Dennis. The fourth track is almost complete to bring it to Islington (assuming it will run on the same tracks as GO/UPX. Just a bit of track laying beyond St Dennis, plus stations. Huge potential for drawing ridership from North Etobicoke, plus Weston - meaning at that point UPX can close its stop there.

- Paul

I hope that this is the next logical step. However, first let them push through Phase 1, Mt Dennis to Kennedy, that is most challenging engineering-wise and most expensive per km.

Once that base is ready, extensions north of Eglinton can be added relatively easily on both the west side and the east side.

 

[ottbike]

^A big cost might have to do with what happens at Union Station. Perhaps there will be a totally new area [underground?] for Smartrack/TTC Line 1 transfers, with the existing train shed used exclusively for RER/GO/VIA. Just a thought but we will see what the reports say.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Hm, I guess. And good point about an underground moving walkway between Main-Danforth, which I'm almost certain will be included in this plan. I recall Michael Schabas writing about this when he proposed and pushed a bs DRL replacement (i.e a Danforth-Union shuttle). But still, $2bn to 3.5bn is a lot of additional money for something that is damn near identical to the existing Metrolinx plans

I'd love to see a report on the opportunity costs of SmartTrack, by not spending $3.5 Billion on the Relief Line. That's a lot of money to spend on something that will delay the need for the RL by a few years at most.

 

[nfitz]

^A big cost might have to do with what happens at Union Station. Perhaps there will be a totally new area [underground?] for Smartrack/TTC Line 1 transfers, with the existing train shed used exclusively for RER/GO/VIA. Just a thought but we will see what the reports say.

I'd think there'd have to be. GO's been talking about new underground platforms between Bay and Yonge; presumably SmartTrack must be down there.

 

[mdrejhon]

- Upgrade to Union Station to facilitate higher ridership. Both Union GO and Union TTC will likely need to be upgraded again

Union is already being in the midst of ugprade! There will be a much faster route between TTC and Bay Concourse, once all is said and done. There will be level entry from TTC into the lower retail concourse of Union, with a very wide hallway leading straight to the Bay Concourse escalators/stairs (6 escalators/stairs wide). There will be no more stairs in the moat.

Above and beyond this -- you probably meant track upgrades, yes (e.g. possible make certain tracks high platforms with level boarding) but the Union Revitalization lasts until 2017.

P.S. TheTigerMaster, I finally noticed your private message (the PM system on this site is not as good as the old forum software), I've already replied, but you can also google my name and send me an email.

 

[mdrejhon]

In other words will this be a completely separate service/system from GO and RER (e.g using different rolling stock)?

The actual answer may be between "no" and "yes".

GO electrification is likely to involve EMUs on certain routes, and some EMUs may require high platforms for faster/level boarding. This will need retrofits to some platforms. This was already proposed before SmartTrack but this would make this a much more subway-feel service, frequent train service with level boarding on shorter (150 meter) electric trains, whether single-level or bi-level.

This might still have been planned without SmartTrack, but over a longer time scale, and with more limitations (fewer stations, EMU but no level boarding, etc).

Also, the ECLRT extension may actually be a major part of the funding.

 

[ssiguy2]

I think Tory and the TTC will want to differentiate the ST subway from RER/GO which would also be easier for the travelling public to know what service is standard TTC and others that require an extra fare.

I think they will probably use standard subway cars just like Yonge/Bloor but have overhead power supply like Cleveland and many other Metro systems on regular rail track so the average rider sees it just as another Toronto subway. I can see Tory wanting to take up some of the UPX line and god knows most in Toronto would support that. Tory will want this seen as a DRL subway without the DRL price which it effectively is.

Even if they have to double or triple current rail track especially in the eastern section, it will still be vastly cheaper and quicker to build than the standard tunnelled DRL. In Toronto the environmental review alone will take 5 years but none is required here due to using existing rail corridors. To help serve DM the buses to Bloor station from DM will be extended slightly to a probably station at Pape.

When ML did their study and found that the ST would have very little impact on the crowding at Y&B they did so using the model that the train would run every 15 minutes and were unsure about the fare integration.. There is a HUGE difference between 15 minute service on an extra fare line and 5 minute service using your TTC ticket in terms of riders they will create...............in terms of ridership potential they are not even comparable.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I think they will probably use standard subway cars just like Yonge/Bloor but have overhead power supply like Cleveland and many other Metro systems on regular rail track so the average rider sees it just as another Toronto subway. I can see Tory wanting to take up some of the UPX line and god knows most in Toronto would support that. Tory will want this seen as a DRL subway without the DRL price which it effectively is.

Federal regulations won't in a million-billion years ever allow Toronto Rocket style cars on mainline rail. It's a safety risk. TRs have no crash protection.

When ML did their study and found that the ST would have very little i9mpact on the crowding at Y&B they did so using the model that the train would run every 15 minutes and were unsure about the fare integration.. There is a HUGE difference between 15 minute service on an extra fare line and 5 minute service using your TTC ticket in terms of riders they will create...............in terms of ridership potential they are not even comparable

Metrolinx used between 5 and 10 minute frequencies to evaluate the RER+ option on Yonge Line crowding, which is exactly the same service plan described in Moore's article. East of Yonge (the relevant potion), it included stations at Unilever, Queen East, Main Street, St. Clair East, Kennedy, Sheppard and Steeles on the Stouffville Line and stations on John Street, Highway 401 and near Finch on the Richmond Hill Line. This differs from SmartTrack in that SmartTrack will have fewer station, as it won't operate on the Richmond Hill Corridor.

The results of the evaluation were that it diverted 400 people from Yonge Line at peak hour.

Unfortunately it's not clear in the Technical Summary if they used GO fares or TTC fares, or if fares were considered at all. If they assumed TTC fares, or didn't bring fares into account, we can expect SmartTrack to have a similar, if not less effect on Yonge Line ridership than RER+. If they assumed GO fares, then the effect on Yonge Line ridership would be an order of magnitude higher. It's conceivable that it could reduce Yonge Line ridership by 4,000 pphpd, which would delay the need for the Relief Line by 9 years.

I think Tory and the TTC will want to differentiate the ST subway from RER/GO which would also be easier for the travelling public to know what service is standard TTC and others that require an extra fare.

The only planning justification for this would be if ridership were so high that they can't fit on the RER EMUs. Otherwise we'd essentially be spending billions for branding purposes.

Given SmartTrack's striking similarities to RER's service plans, I'd expect SmartTrack to use RER EMUs. Essentially it would work by having everyone using GO RER between Kennedy and Mt. Dennis pay TTC fare.