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Rocco Rossi wants subways too!

A(nother) great article from John Lorinc:

http://spacingtoronto.ca/2010/05/05/lorinc-more-tunnel-vision-from-candidates/

Another day, another subway platform.

Adding his voice to the chorus of calls for subway expansion, mayoral candidate Rocco Rossi yesterday unveiled his own program, this one to be funded using the dividend of his plan to sell off Toronto Hydro and retire the city’s $2.5 billion debt load.

Standing on the Kay Gardner bridge south of the Davisville Station, Rossi said yesterday that he plans to invest $4.5 billion over ten years, with funds drawn from the city’s operating budget. By paying off the accumulated debt, Rossi said the city would save about $450 million a year in interest payments.

The announcement brought a swift put-down from George Smitherman, who issued a release that said, “Torontonians now have the right to question Mr. Rossi’s competence to be mayor” because of “errors” and “holes” in the plan.

The annual savings, according to Rossi’s proposal (dubbed “Transit City Plus”), should pay for the construction of two kilometres of tunnel plus a station every year, with the TTC relying on a continuous tunneling approach to save start-up costs.

Rossi also said he’d delay the Downtown Relief Line in favour of completing the Sheppard subway and extending the Yonge line up into York Region.

Like Sarah Thomson, Rossi wants private sector involvement in these projects to bring costs down, but he rejected road tolls as a way of raising revenue. Also like Thomson, Rossi’s numbers are unrealistically optimistic and fail to account for a range of associated budget pressures.

His plan assumes subway construction costs of $225 million per kilometer, which is almost a third less than what’s being spent currently on the Spadina extension into Vaughan. Nor does it not include the purchase of additional subway cars, the little matter of the TTC’s $400 million a year operating deficit, and the fallout from mounting overcrowding on a Yonge line that will be expected to serve transit-starved 905ers. Finally, he hasn’t factored in the loss of the Hydro dividend payment, which adds about $25 to $50 million a year to the city’s revenue stream.

Smitherman further pointed out that the Hydro sale would trigger a 33% transfer tax.

Rossi’s pitch also presumes the city’s interest payments will remain negligible after he uses the Hydro proceeds to retire the debt. But according to council’s long-term capital plan, the city will spend about $16 billion over the next decade on a broad range of infrastructure improvements (road/bridge repairs, transit maintenance, water mains, etc.), adding $4.7 billion in new net debt.

That’s twice as much debt as we have today, meaning the city will again be faced with a very substantial annual interest outlay, except in a decade, we’ll have no big asset to sell off in order to make that line item disappear.

And thus we arrive at the wing-and-a-prayer aspect of Transit City Plus.

Rossi, like Mel Lastman did over a decade ago, is talking about using the subway expansion to drive high-density development activity along the new lines. Eventually, the density will materialize, but not in the time frame Rossi envisions.

Then there’s the Metrolinx psychodrama. The agency is expected to release a modified version of its Big Move plan on May 19 in response to the province’s move to delay the funding of Transit City and Viva.

Rossi yesterday would not rule out the possibility of asking Metrolinx to take over the subways whole cloth. “That’s part of the discussion we need to have,” he said, adding. “While it’s on the table, [the transfer] is not a foregone conclusion.”

He also hinted that he’d be open to asking Metrolinx to re-allocate part of the $8 billion Transit City funding to the subways he’s proposing. His gambit — and you’ve heard this one before — is that if Toronto shows its got the intestinal fortitude to finance subway construction on its own dime, our provincial overlords will be sufficiently impressed that they’ll give us a top-up if we ask nicely.

But can Torontonians take that one to the bank? Hardly. Just look at what happened with the triple-promised LRT funding.

Give Rossi this much: he’s been willing to cough up a somewhat plausible financing scenario, unlike Thomson or Rob Ford. But for someone who’s fashioned himself as a number cruncher, his arithmetic still leaves much to be desired.
 
From The Star

Where candidates stand on subways
----------------------------
Rob Ford: Favours subways over streetcars and says he would finance construction using public-sector funding and by selling assets, such as the air rights above stations.

Giorgio Mammoliti: Favours a citywide subway to be funded by public-private partnerships.

Joe Pantalone: Not opposed to subways, but says the city can’t afford to wait to start transit expansion. Light rail lines can happen now, with Transit City.

George Smitherman: Has not revealed a comprehensive transit plan. A rep reached Tuesday said it will be announced in the coming weeks and is expected to include subways.

Sarah Thomson: Would build a city-wide subway system using revenues from $5 rush-hour road tolls on the Gardiner Expressway and Don Valley Parkway

--------------------------

I wonder what Smithermans will be? TC with a DRL subway? :D
 
I wonder what Smithermans will be? TC with a DRL subway? :D

Can the government(s) afford both, and if not, which project would you sacrifice citizens of Toronto? That is the more poignant question to be asked.
 
All the mayoralty candidates seem to be for more rapid transit. Whatever form it will be, is mostly different. However, to really do any kind of rapid transit needs the support of the provincial and, hopefully, the federal governments. Money is needed to build rapid transit, and Toronto is being shortchanged by the higher forms of government. We need a mayor who will be able to persuade the province and Ottawa that Toronto and the other cities need help.

We need more rapid transit, and hopefully sooner than later. I would choose the one who will try to get us rapid transit all over Toronto and not just in selected corridors.
 
Rossi would prefer York Region gets the Yonge extension before building the DRL.

If they do that they will most likely do Sheppard West, to connect that area.

I approve. It's more subway kms. And it's cheaper. But it's more subway. More Metro = More Goodness.




edit:

Over crowding on the Yonge line? Why don't they add surface buses during peak hours?

It would only put more pressure to have a DRL. More pressure to expand the system = more good!
 
I think the goal should be to even out demand on the transit system. They get over capacity at peak times because TTC can’t afford to automate, and everyone goes to union to get to their suburban bedrooms. Otherwise, the TTC runs under-capacity most of the time.

Huh (again)?

Yeah, the reason why the Yonge Subway is overcapacity is the commuters headed home via Union Station. Have you rode the Yonge Subway in rush hour? Most of the commuters going to and from Union are actually going in the counter-peak direction, and aren't causing the congestion. The congestion is from commuters headed to other parts of Toronto, which will only intensify.

Most of the LRT fans support the DRL. Steve Munro gets a lot of flak on this forum for being some sort of evil LRT mastermind, but he'll come out and say the DRL is needed 5 years ago, especially if the Don Mills LRT is built, which he says should go only as far south as Eglinton to connect with the DRL there.

Your logic makes little sense.
 
back to the drawing board...
Full metro implies heavy rail transit. Metro implies HIGH capacity. LRT can not be Metro, by the definition of Metro.


That is why I specifically use metro rather than subway in my wording, in case you have not noticed.




Back to the question...

Address the 13 km tunnel. There is no reason why that should not be a full metro from the start.




edit:
Use wikipedia for some enlightenment.
List of METRO systems... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metro_systems
List of TRAM/LRT systems... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tram_and_light-rail_transit_systems

Cheers. :)
 
If they do that they will most likely do Sheppard West, to connect that area.

I approve. It's more subway kms. And it's cheaper. But it's more subway. More Metro = More Goodness.




edit:



It would only put more pressure to have a DRL. More pressure to expand the system = more good!

Sheppard W extending into York Region? More km = more better, regardless of need or effect on the existing network? You would have us cripple the Yonge line to force the DRL. Great plan.
 
I know, I have a sick mind, but there is no other way to force the bastards to do what they should have done 20 years ago.

Am I evil or what? Evil demands chocolate, jfyi.
 
I think most of the DRL works in terms of having similar demand to the existing Bloor Line. Running the subway up to Flemingdon Park and Thorncliffe as on most DRL plans would probably let the TTC drop fares because there’s so many people living in that part of the city, lol. But then increased residential prices might push people out of those communities and create a bit of a zero-sum game.

This probably wouldn't happen. For one thing, if residents in a place like Thorncliffe are phased out by rising rents, chances are they'd be replaced by people that use the DRL, not SUV-driving soccer moms who avoid transit like the plague. If each household in Thorncliffe has 3 children, yeah, the total population will be high, but the current actual transit using population may not be that stupendous and could be replaced by households of one or two people. What are the rents like in Crescent Town, which has had direct subway access for decades? What's happening to the rents at Don Mills & Sheppard now that it's had subway access for about 7 years? Also, running the subway up Don Mills would generate thousands and thousands of new transit trips out of thin air.

Rossi wants to build the Sheppard line further east into relative nowheresville where people use cars or buses to move around. The TDSB is closing schools out that way because the population is distributed so unevenly. You’d have to build all the way out to Brimley in the first phase in order to reach the first significant population centre. Otherwise it’ll be as busy as that station in Rosedale is at 11:30am.

This paragraph makes absolutely no sense. East of Don Mills you have a huge office park, and then you have a very large community (Agincourt) in which Sheppard is lined with dozens of apartment buildings. Once you get to Brimley, Sheppard becomes an extremely low density wasteland. Do you have any idea how busy the 85/190 buses are?
 

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