OLG Toronto/GTA casino proposal (where to put it?)

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

Well, COLD CLEAR LOGIC says that if dntn Toronto doesnt want the casino, Scarboro Town Centre should grab it and leverage it to build the Sheppard subway:

IT IS A GREAT IDEA

http://www.coldclearlogic.com/2012/03/19/waterfront-toronto-versus-scarborough-transit-and-casinos/

Waterfront Toronto versus Scarborough: Transit and Casinos

Seriously?

Although, the linked pundit does use one of my favourite phrases, "In actuality", which almost always seems to flag a whacked-out fringe opinion being presented as fact without any corroboration. In this case, it flags the assertion that a downtown casino would 'likely inhibit gambling addiction.' This is based on the fact that the many casinos in Vegas grew revenue by adding non-gambling entertainment options. But, but, but... what if there was $0 gambling revenue to start? Wouldn't a new casino then add to the gambling revenue? Isn't that sort of the reason OLG wants to build a casino? I'm just sayin'...

Anyhoo, if Scarberians and STC want a casino, have at it.

 

[TrickyRicky]

If put to a referendum I guarantee Toronto will vote against a casino. I also think Hamilton won't get a casino because what's the point of that from an OLG business perspective? If I live in the GTA and I need to go to Hamilton to go to a casino why wouldn't I just go to Niagara falls which at least has complementary tourist facilities and activities?

In a way I think the anti-casino rhetoric of Vaughan strikes a slightly elitist tone. P.S. pretty well all major Canadian cities and regional centres have casinos. Toronto is virtually unique in not having one. Last time I checked cities from coast to coast in this country, from Vancouver to Calgary to Montreal to Halifax aren't exactly struggling because they have a casino. They are not declining because they have a casino. Infact, I doubt last time you visited you even thought about the fact that there is a casino.

Casinos are basically a non-issue except it seems in Toronto. On the other hand I'm fine with the status quo of no casino. I just think it's stupid to say no to a casino and just have a facility two blocks outside Toronto's border in say Vaughan or Mississauga. This is the most likely scenerio and yet what is the purpose of that? We get all the negative without the accompanying revenue.

 

[raquel]

In a way I think the anti-casino rhetoric of Vaughan strikes a slightly elitist tone. P.S. pretty well all major Canadian cities and regional centres have casinos. Toronto is virtually unique in not having one. Last time I checked cities from coast to coast in this country, from Vancouver to Calgary to Montreal to Halifax aren't exactly struggling because they have a casino. They are not declining because they have a casino. Infact, I doubt last time you visited you even thought about the fact that there is a casino.

Casinos are basically a non-issue except it seems in Toronto. .

And that's precisely why Toronto should not get any 'Downtown Relief Line' or anything for that matter. If they are so arrogant and snooty and high and mighty to reject casinos..... even tho casinos in Vegas have built a monorail system for the public (as revealed by the pundit referenced), ... then they should not expect public funding for subways or anything.

Dntn Toronto people whine continuously that their Yonge subway is over crowded, they need DRL etc etc ... and then they turn around and reject casinos, which could easily fund all those things.

And then they go against Rob Ford and screw Scarborough out of a subway!

 

[raquel]

Seriously?

In this case, it flags the assertion that a downtown casino would 'likely inhibit gambling addiction.' This is based on the fact that the many casinos in Vegas grew revenue by adding non-gambling entertainment options. But, but, but... what if there was $0 gambling revenue to start? Wouldn't a new casino then add to the gambling revenue? Isn't that sort of the reason OLG wants to build a casino? I'm just sayin'...

.

At one time Vegas had no casinos either, you gotta start someplace. In a place like Toronto casinos would be surrounded by great entertainment and shopping, and yes people may come and spend 20 bucks on gambling, but then they'll get hungry and need to eat, or see something nice they wanna buy, and end up spending 200 bucks on non gambling things.

 

[sixrings]

And that's precisely why Toronto should not get any 'Downtown Relief Line' or anything for that matter. If they are so arrogant and snooty and high and mighty to reject casinos..... even tho casinos in Vegas have built a monorail system for the public (as revealed by the pundit referenced), ... then they should not expect public funding for subways or anything.

Dntn Toronto people whine continuously that their Yonge subway is over crowded, they need DRL etc etc ... and then they turn around and reject casinos, which could easily fund all those things.

And then they go against Rob Ford and screw Scarborough out of a subway!

Theres no proof that the casino could make anywhere near the money needed for a DRL. On another note it isnt downtowners who are making the yonge line over capacity. It is North York riders, Richmond hill riders and Scarborough riders who transfer at bloor. Actually I am quite sure when a DRL is proposed the downtown neighbourhoods which the line will go under will argue against the line since they dont want higher density in there close to downtown areas. Riverdale will not be big fans of having high density development which will come with the new DRL.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

...casinos, which could easily fund all those things.

Really, where is the proof that a casino will raise enough money to fund a subway for the municipality? And before you quote Vegas as the example - how many casinos and much gaming revenue does it get per year, vs. the scenario of a single Toronto casino? Where is your cold hard "logic"?

At one time Vegas had no casinos either, you gotta start someplace. In a place like Toronto casinos would be surrounded by great entertainment and shopping, and yes people may come and spend 20 bucks on gambling, but then they'll get hungry and need to eat, or see something nice they wanna buy, and end up spending 200 bucks on non gambling things.

Show me the cold hard math of how much a casino will net, inclusive of purported multiplier effects, in terms of revenues for the municipal government instead of platitudes.

AoD

 

[raquel]

Theres no proof that the casino could make anywhere near the money needed for a DRL. L.

There ya go with the 'there is no proof' etc. There will never BE any proof either, because the TTC remains adamantly opposed to private sector participation. Wont happen unless you try, will it? Have they tried??? Has the TTC phoned up a casino operator and even asked??? Then how do they know it wont work, if they havent even asked???

Doug Ford is a hero of mine who said it just right ..'The TTC needs an enema'.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Sorry, multi-billion dollar policy making shouldn't be a matter of gamble. You have been tasked with providing proof, you failed to do so - don't change the subject.

AoD

 

[raquel]

Really, where is the proof that a casino will raise enough money to fund a subway for the municipality? And before you quote Vegas as the example - how many casinos and much gaming revenue does it get per year, vs. the scenario of a single Toronto casino? Where is your cold hard "logic"?



Show me the cold hard math of how much a casino will net, inclusive of purported multiplier effects, in terms of revenues for the municipal government instead of platitudes.

AoD

Oh, that's not for me to do.. that's the job of the TTC. THEY need to phone up casino operators and get their lazy union butts in gear. Pundits give the broad outlines of a solution, then the transit commission, or more specifically Her Highness Karen Stintz, needs to contact the right people and get proposals.

Want me or Cold Hard Logic to do all the work? Sure, pay me the six figure consultant's fees and one of us will do it.

 

[raquel]

Sorry, multi-billion dollar policy making shouldn't be a matter of gamble. You have been tasked with providing proof, you failed to do so - don't change the subject.

AoD

I have been tasked?? No, you say it wont work, SO YOU can PROVE that it will not!

See, two can play this game, cant they?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Well, you are the one who come up with that "solution", surely you can back up your claim? Why should I do the work for you as the proponent of said solution? You are the one trying to make the case - to sell your product, so to say. By asking me for the proof of your case, you are basically saying a customer should be the one demonstrating the superiority of a seller's product. That's ass-backward "logic".

And speaking of proof - Rob Ford had a year to do so with Sheppard and failed to do so. Remember the "no public money needed" promise that become "limited public funds"? Perhaps he needs to contact the right people - but of course, he did, and the developers said they wanted subways too, but didn't come up with a single buck for him.

AoD

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

At one time Vegas had no casinos either, you gotta start someplace. In a place like Toronto casinos would be surrounded by great entertainment and shopping, and yes people may come and spend 20 bucks on gambling, but then they'll get hungry and need to eat, or see something nice they wanna buy, and end up spending 200 bucks on non gambling things.

So... to boost the non-gambling revenue, you need to build a casino, and then build the 'other stuff?' Why not... build the other stuff with the money you're going to spend on the casino?

 

[raquel]

Rob Ford had a year to do so with Sheppard and failed to do so. Remember the "no public money needed" promise? Perhaps he needs to contact the right people - but of course, he did, and the developers didn't come up with a single buck for him.

AoD

Because he was handcuffed. He proposed monorail/mall/casino complex on the Waterfront, and they shot him down. So he didnt bother proposing casino for Scarborough, cuz they would oppose that.

How can Rob Ford get a subway privately financed with so many handcuffs and restraints?

It's like asking you to knock out Mike Tyson with your hands tied behind your back!

 

[raquel]

So... to boost the non-gambling revenue, you need to build a casino, and then build the 'other stuff?' Why not... build the other stuff with the money you're going to spend on the casino?

That answer should be obvious. Other parts of Toronto have the 'other stuff', malls, restaurants etc. To get people to come to the waterfront and shop THERE, you need something there that those other Eaton Centres and Yonge Streets dont' have.

A unique hook, if you will. An attractive and splendid hook! A CASINO. A glittering CASINO surrounded by glittering malls and magnifiecnt restaurants, right on the waterfront!!


What a heroic and visionary man Rob Ford is.

Woulda worked like a charm too, if those biased ideologues hadnt ruined everything.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Because he was handcuffed. He proposed monorail/mall/casino complex on the Waterfront, and they shot him down. So he didnt bother proposing casino for Scarborough, cuz they would oppose that. How can Rob Ford get a subway privately financed with so many handcuffs and restraints?

I am not talking about the waterfront. I am talking about Sheppard and the fact that he had a year to make his case - afterall, investors were lined up to fund it, no? So why the shift from "no public funds" to "limited public funds" and the helpful developer friends plus the truncated line huh? Answer that one. Don't change the subject from the casino funding the subway lines to the appropriateness of a casino on the waterfront either - they are two different issues. And again, where are the numbers? Where is the case? Where's the selling?

And hell, he can't even move Woodbine Live! along - a project he claimed sole credit for, reality notwithstanding - much less a proper casino. That's not heroism and vision - it's impotence.

AoD