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OLG Toronto/GTA casino proposal (where to put it?)

I see no convincing case that a casino must harm the city. And people apparently want it. So wh not?
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You know, I'm beginning to think that perhaps things can be too obvious for some people. No convincing case???? How about every casino ever built? Or do you think something magical might happen in Toronto? "Apparently" everybody wants it? Where did you glean this little tid-bit of statistical info from...the pickle jar?



Have you been to the CNE grounds lately? Beautiful structures and decent park lands, which are absolutely empty almost all the time. Let's give people a reason to go there, and invest in improving the public land around it.
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You haven't been paying attention...casinos don't improve the public realm around them. Yes, the CNE grounds do need to be revitalized beyond it's current usage, but the last thing you want to do is ruin its chances by putting a casino there...it's just a nail in its coffin.


The voices that support casinos are representatives of the industry, shills and lobbyists.
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In other words..."biased" people. There's also the part of the general public who have this bizarre notion that gamblers might underwrite lower taxes for them, so are for it strictly on that kind of conservative-thinking, selfishness basis...with zero regards to any other consequences.
 
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freshcutgrass said:
You know, I'm beginning to think that perhaps things can be too obvious for some people. No convincing case???? How about every casino ever built? Or do you think something magical might happen in Toronto? "Apparently" everybody wants it? Where did you glean this little tid-bit of statistical info from...the pickle jar?
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I have no horse in this game (pardon the bad pun) but in reading your reply the exact same question popped into my head. Can you say with certainty that every casino ever built deifinetly harmed the city it was in (not just, did not improve it and not just most or the ones that have been pointed out....but every casino ever built definitely harmed the city it was in?)
 
Can you say with certainty that every casino ever built deifinetly harmed the city it was in
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Yes I can.

I have that report on every casino ever built in every city since the beginning of time right here...let me just get it out.

Look, saying there's no convincing case that casinos are bad urban planning means you simply haven't looked at any evidence...in other words, you are ignorant. And I won't waste much time trying to prove a negative. The convincing case required, is the one that proves this is a good move for the city....and good luck on that. Then there's the perception that "everybody wants it, so why not do it" absurd position.

If Toronto gets a casino, it's not going to ruin the city. But if you're looking at whether the city should allow one, based on pros & cons, and the cons win...then why do it? It's just common sense.
 
freshcutgrass said:
Yes I can.

I have that report on every casino ever built in every city since the beginning of time right here...let me just get it out.

Look, saying there's no convincing case that casinos are bad urban planning means you simply haven't looked at any evidence...in other words, you are ignorant.
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Fair enough...that is your opinion...but the posting you responded to (which elicited my response) did not say "there is no convincing case that casinos are bad urban planning. it said:


I see no convincing case that a casino must harm the city.
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and that is when you jumped in with the "how about every casino ever built" response.

Like I said, I don't think I care about casinos....I just can't think that it is as cut and dried as either side makes it out and I would rather read/follow reasoned debate than hyperbolic statements (in either direction).

Gonna butt out now and just follow along.
 
and that is when you jumped in with the "how about every casino ever built" response.
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I hate wasting time pointing out the obvious. In context, my response was quite obviously never intended to be taken literally (although I doubt it's far off)...it was to show the absurdity of saying there is no convincing evidence of the negative effects of casinos, or that anything presented as evidence is just "biased".
 
If there HAS to be a casino, why wouldn't they just build it at Woodbine? I don't see how there's even a debate. They wouldn't even half to expand it all that much necessarily (though I'm sure there would some expansion). For the most part, they could just move a large percentage of the video terminals out, and replace them with table games. With actual table games, there will be less demand for the video slots and poker. People play those video games now because they can't play actual table games there. They could expand the floor space, but much of the floor space for the table games could be what they are already using for the video slots.

Plus Woodbine has far better highway access than anywhere near downtown, and most of the people are going to be from out of town.
 
freshcutgrass said:
Look, saying there's no convincing case that casinos are bad urban planning means you simply haven't looked at any evidence...in other words, you are ignorant. And I won't waste much time trying to prove a negative. The convincing case required, is the one that proves this is a good move for the city....and good luck on that. Then there's the perception that "everybody wants it, so why not do it" absurd position.

If Toronto gets a casino, it's not going to ruin the city. But if you're looking at whether the city should allow one, based on pros & cons, and the cons win...then why do it? It's just common sense.
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I find that when people start saying "I won't waste my time explaining the obvious," it's because maybe they are starting to have some self-doubt! So let's try one more time.

You want to argue that casinos "ruin the city". Your evidence is that some casinos are IN ruined cities. Try thinking in terms of what social scientists call the "counter-factual". If Detroit did not have a casino, what would be in that spot? Without a doubt the answer is "another abandoned building or parking lot". Though I do not know Atlantic City, I suspect the answer there is the same. So we cannot claim that casinos ruin cities, especially when there are examples like Gatineau, Melbourne and (no duh) Monte Carlo that point the other way.

Your other argument is that casinos are bad because they do not contribute to the streetscape around them or otherwise engage their neighbours. Sure, but neither do parking lots, and the CNE grounds have an INFINITE supply of parking lots for development, so what harm is there in converting one to a casino?

You conclude by saying that you are not convinced casinos are "a good move," so they should be banned. You know that won't wash. The city is full of things I don't think are good -- like cars on downtown streets, for the most part. But other people value them, and the harm to me is limited. So of course I am not opposed to allowing cars on downtown streets, as long as they are regulated, managed and taxed appropriately.

Short version: you're a smart guy. What's your deal with casinos?
 
freshcutgrass said:
I hate wasting time pointing out the obvious.......... .
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Please do stop wasting your time, you are obviously castings pearls before swine. I am sure the other members of UT, and I will categorically attest to your brilliance and grasp of all things worthy of notice if you will just shut the hell up. Go annoy someone else.
 
You want to argue that casinos "ruin the city".
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You just quoted me saying the opposite. With journalistic chops like that, I see a big future for you at the Toronto Sun.


Your other argument is that casinos are bad because they do not contribute to the streetscape around them or otherwise engage their neighbours. Sure, but neither do parking lots
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I don't advocate building parking lots either.


the CNE grounds have an INFINITE supply of parking lots for development, so what harm is there in converting one to a casino?
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Because there isn't an infinite amount of space at CNE to develop, which is why it should be done carefully.

The CNE grounds were purposely put aside for the annual fair originally. As time went by and the city grew, the time has come to rethink its use. It needs to be carefully planned, and no such plan has been done. You just don't go throwing mega casinos into the mix as if it was benign, because it isn't.


You conclude by saying that you are not convinced casinos are "a good move," so they should be banned. You know that won't wash. The city is full of things I don't think are good -- like cars on downtown streets, for the most part.
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Well, one is a viable plan...the other isn't...so neither is that argument.


What's your deal with casinos?
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Two main points.

1: I don't think the provincial government should be encouraging more people to gamble as a means to increase their revenues.
2: I'm realistic as to what it offers to the City of Toronto.
 
freshcutgrass said:
Yes I can.

I have that report on every casino ever built in every city since the beginning of time right here...let me just get it out.

Look, saying there's no convincing case that casinos are bad urban planning means you simply haven't looked at any evidence...in other words, you are ignorant. And I won't waste much time trying to prove a negative. The convincing case required, is the one that proves this is a good move for the city....and good luck on that. Then there's the perception that "everybody wants it, so why not do it" absurd position.

If Toronto gets a casino, it's not going to ruin the city. But if you're looking at whether the city should allow one, based on pros & cons, and the cons win...then why do it? It's just common sense.
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Toronto casino referendum on the table, Duncan says
'Imagine an anchor that could create a golden mile,' finance minister says

Ontario's finance minister wagers that a casino along Toronto's waterfront would be a cash bonanza, and he's willing to lay the odds in a referendum.
Dwight Duncan, enticed by revenue-generating potential, envisions a massive entertainment complex anchored by a casino along the lake.
"Forty-odd flights will leave Toronto this week to go to Vegas or Atlantic City," he said.
But those gambling dollars could instead be poured into the local economy.
"These are not the days of Bugsy Siegel. These places have some of the finest shopping, restaurants, convention facilities, park spaces, open spaces," Duncan said.
"Imagine an anchor that could create a golden mile on Toronto's waterfront."
The minister said he's not alone in seeing the potential for a large complex anchored by a casino at the waterfront, adding he has heard "expressions of interest from a number of other municipalities in the GTA."
More.....http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2012/04/04/tor-casino-duncan.html


Im starting to think that you may be Adam

Two motions opposing plans for a casino will be tabled next week, and Coun. Adam Vaughan said he's noticed a disturbing urban trend linked to casino developments.
"Any part of the world you go to where there's a casino, you have a dead neighbourhood," Vaughan argued. "I'm not killing any neighbourhood in Toronto, and I will stand up to the province or the mayor or anyone who thinks casinos are a good idea."
 
Well, Woodbine is already a kind of "dead-ish" neighbourhood.

Though I'd imagine this is one issue where, if a casino at all, the Fords and the hard-left on council are in agreement: the best place for such a thing would be Woodbine...
 
could we then get some sort of islington BRT that splits and goes up rexdale to the race track/casino?
 
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