R
rbtaylor
Guest
I think they were replacing about 1/3rd of the fleet and expanding a touch to accomodate growth.
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I think they were replacing about 1/3rd of the fleet and expanding a touch to accomodate growth.
A
ahrvojic
Guest
Article
Experts give thumbs up to TTC's Bombardier deal
JENNIFER LEWINGTON
Globe and Mail Update
Outside experts have given the thumbs up to the Toronto Transit Commission's controversial proposal for a sole-source contract with Bombardier to build 234 subway cars, The Globe and Mail has learned.
The experts' positive evaluation of Bombardier's bid price on the subway cars $499.3-million, several sources said Tuesday provides key ammunition for transit commissioners convinced that an exclusive deal is good for the city. In any case, TTC staff recommend finalizing a deal with Bombardier, a decision that would be debated by city council in September. This year, Germany-based Siemens Transportation System contended it could save the TTC $100-million on its proposed purchase of subway cars, most of which are to replace existing vehicles. Since then, several members of council have called for a competitive bidding process. The much-anticipated outside evaluations, to be debated by TTC commissioners on Aug. 30, are unequivocal.
The prices proposed by Bombardier are reasonable based on our industry analysis of external data, concludes one consultant, Booz Allen Hamilton. Pursuing a competitive procurement at this stage would add significant delay and increase internal TTC costs without any certainty of reducing the final proposal costs.
A second outside consultant, Interfleet Technology Evaluation, says the proposed price is below most of the recent comparable North American procurements.
Meanwhile, in a separate development also up for debate on Aug. 30, TTC staff have given the thumbs-down to a possible $1.2-billion subway extension in Scarborough. Instead, officials prefer a $360-million refurbishment of the existing Scarborough RT line as the most cost-effective answer to ease congestion. But it is the proposed subway car purchase that will likely stir the most fire. In addition to the base, pretax price of $499.3-million for the cars, the overall Bombardier deal is an estimated $550-million, once related costs are counted.
TTC acting chief general manager Gary Webster declined to provide details, but was clear on one point. We do not have enough money to award this order [for 2009], he said, citing continuing uncertainty about provincial and federal government assistance.
Several commissioners declined to supply details of the report since the agenda for the TTC meeting will not be released until today (wed) at the earliest.
But Councillor Glenn De Baeremaeker, one of several commissioners who support a sole-source contract, said if what you have told me [about the price] is true, somebody owes [TTC chairman] Howard Moscoe an apology. Mr. Moscoe has been an ardent supporter of the deal, saying it will ensure transit construction jobs for Canada.
Councillor Karen Stintz (Eglinton-Lawrence), a vocal critic, said it's not about Bombardier.
It's about a process we didn't follow, she said, arguing that the TTC should follow the lead of city departments that require competitive bids on contracts of this size.
Experts give thumbs up to TTC's Bombardier deal
JENNIFER LEWINGTON
Globe and Mail Update
Outside experts have given the thumbs up to the Toronto Transit Commission's controversial proposal for a sole-source contract with Bombardier to build 234 subway cars, The Globe and Mail has learned.
The experts' positive evaluation of Bombardier's bid price on the subway cars $499.3-million, several sources said Tuesday provides key ammunition for transit commissioners convinced that an exclusive deal is good for the city. In any case, TTC staff recommend finalizing a deal with Bombardier, a decision that would be debated by city council in September. This year, Germany-based Siemens Transportation System contended it could save the TTC $100-million on its proposed purchase of subway cars, most of which are to replace existing vehicles. Since then, several members of council have called for a competitive bidding process. The much-anticipated outside evaluations, to be debated by TTC commissioners on Aug. 30, are unequivocal.
The prices proposed by Bombardier are reasonable based on our industry analysis of external data, concludes one consultant, Booz Allen Hamilton. Pursuing a competitive procurement at this stage would add significant delay and increase internal TTC costs without any certainty of reducing the final proposal costs.
A second outside consultant, Interfleet Technology Evaluation, says the proposed price is below most of the recent comparable North American procurements.
Meanwhile, in a separate development also up for debate on Aug. 30, TTC staff have given the thumbs-down to a possible $1.2-billion subway extension in Scarborough. Instead, officials prefer a $360-million refurbishment of the existing Scarborough RT line as the most cost-effective answer to ease congestion. But it is the proposed subway car purchase that will likely stir the most fire. In addition to the base, pretax price of $499.3-million for the cars, the overall Bombardier deal is an estimated $550-million, once related costs are counted.
TTC acting chief general manager Gary Webster declined to provide details, but was clear on one point. We do not have enough money to award this order [for 2009], he said, citing continuing uncertainty about provincial and federal government assistance.
Several commissioners declined to supply details of the report since the agenda for the TTC meeting will not be released until today (wed) at the earliest.
But Councillor Glenn De Baeremaeker, one of several commissioners who support a sole-source contract, said if what you have told me [about the price] is true, somebody owes [TTC chairman] Howard Moscoe an apology. Mr. Moscoe has been an ardent supporter of the deal, saying it will ensure transit construction jobs for Canada.
Councillor Karen Stintz (Eglinton-Lawrence), a vocal critic, said it's not about Bombardier.
It's about a process we didn't follow, she said, arguing that the TTC should follow the lead of city departments that require competitive bids on contracts of this size.
E
EnviroTO
Guest
Someone owes Moscoe an appology for what? Believing in the free market and realizing that the fate of Bombardier lies in a world market for its products and that one contract can not be the reason a company survives or fails?
What is the most cost effective answer to ease congestion at York U and empty lands and an AMC theatre in Vaughan? Scarborough voters should not accept this. There is no way that a route which hasn't yet seen BRT/LRT style transit warrants a subway more than a location which already has LRT running at full capacity with supplementary express busses to ease the load. There is no way the Sheppard Line should ever have been planned to Scarborough Centre if the more valuable line from Scarborough Centre to Downtown doesn't warrant a subway.
Meanwhile, in a separate development also up for debate on Aug. 30, TTC staff have given the thumbs-down to a possible $1.2-billion subway extension in Scarborough. Instead, officials prefer a $360-million refurbishment of the existing Scarborough RT line as the most cost-effective answer to ease congestion.
What is the most cost effective answer to ease congestion at York U and empty lands and an AMC theatre in Vaughan? Scarborough voters should not accept this. There is no way that a route which hasn't yet seen BRT/LRT style transit warrants a subway more than a location which already has LRT running at full capacity with supplementary express busses to ease the load. There is no way the Sheppard Line should ever have been planned to Scarborough Centre if the more valuable line from Scarborough Centre to Downtown doesn't warrant a subway.
U
unimaginative2
Guest
I agree completely with your Scarborough comments, EnviroTO.
It's not the failure of a company, it's a closure of the plant. It's also all well and good for Canada to say we believe in a free market for subway cars, but unfortunately just about every other jurisdiction in the world has "Buy Local" policies.
Someone owes Moscoe an appology for what? Believing in the free market and realizing that the fate of Bombardier lies in a world market for its products and that one contract can not be the reason a company survives or fails?
It's not the failure of a company, it's a closure of the plant. It's also all well and good for Canada to say we believe in a free market for subway cars, but unfortunately just about every other jurisdiction in the world has "Buy Local" policies.
E
EnviroTO
Guest
But should our transit system exist for the purpose of subsidizing a for-profit companies bottom line just because it happens to employ Canadian labour? At very least shouldn't it be an open tender with a Canadian content requirement with perhaps exceptions granted for countries that do not have 'buy local' policies? If the Thunder Bay plant was a government shop building equipment for local governments then I would see no issue with it but Bombardier is a company which should not be guaranteed our tax dollars.
S
Suicidal Gingerbread Man
Guest
^
I think it all comes down to how much we get back.
Consider Bombardier's quote:
-$500 million (rumored estimate)
Over $100 million comes back to the provincial and federal governments in taxes. The real cost to us taxpayers is thus $400 million. Siemens would have a very difficult job matching that figure. This isn't even counting the additional income the governments will get from indirect employment in Thunder Bay.
It really makes the Bombardier deal look like the best one.
But not so fast.
The TTC does not see any of the $100 million in taxes that will be generated from this. That is the only remaining catch. If the government can guarantee that the TTC will see some of this money returned to them, then the Bombardier deal would be unquestionably the way to go.
I think it all comes down to how much we get back.
Consider Bombardier's quote:
-$500 million (rumored estimate)
Over $100 million comes back to the provincial and federal governments in taxes. The real cost to us taxpayers is thus $400 million. Siemens would have a very difficult job matching that figure. This isn't even counting the additional income the governments will get from indirect employment in Thunder Bay.
It really makes the Bombardier deal look like the best one.
But not so fast.
The TTC does not see any of the $100 million in taxes that will be generated from this. That is the only remaining catch. If the government can guarantee that the TTC will see some of this money returned to them, then the Bombardier deal would be unquestionably the way to go.
U
unimaginative2
Guest
Star: New Subway Cars to Have Anti-Microbial Surfaces
Howard Hughes would be so proud
TRANSIT | New products to shield germaphobes from bugs on a (subway) train. By Andrew Chung
Aug. 27, 2006. 01:00 AM
ANDREW CHUNG
Oh, woe is Emily Wang when she boards the subway. All those gleaming steel bars, beckoning her to caress them, hold them, lest she be thrown around as the train lurches ahead.
But no, she will not. The possibilities are endless: traces of blood, urine, excrement, nasal spray, saliva, parasites, bacteria, viruses ... well, she'll do anything to avoid the bars. "They're just gross," says the 18-year-old high school student. "I don't think they clean them at all."
Outside Union Station, she holds her purse and explains her strategy. After entering a subway car, she finds something, like a stanchion or a partition, against which she can lean. Sometimes using her hands is unavoidable, though. And for those occasions, she says, motioning to her white short-strapped purse, she carries Purell hand sanitizer.
Perhaps it's undeserved, but Toronto's subway system, by virtue of its public — and very crowded — nature, has, like most other big transit systems, a reputation as a place where filthy hands and other body parts leave germs.
So many people nowadays seem to worry about germs. If they're not manoeuvring, Wang-like, on the subway, they're opening door handles with elbows, or flushing public toilets with feet, or typing on an ATM keypad with knuckles. Are we all turning into latter-day versions of Howard Hughes?
Even if we're not, it had to happen: a growing number of entrepreneurs, and even the Toronto Transit Commission itself, have set out to do something about these anxieties.
This year, the TranStrap was launched in the U.S. It's a personal hand loop that you hook on the subway overhead bar, thus avoiding any unwanted contact. "I found out that many people who use public transit do so under deep distress," writes inventor Stan Dolberg on his website, transtrap.com. "They worry about getting sick from sharing bars and poles." Then came the "City Mitt," a performance microfibre glove embedded with silver ions, which are naturally antimicrobial, says Emily Beck, the developer from Wilmington, Del., who also works in New York.
When she moved to Manhattan and took the subway for the first time, she found it "extremely dirty, and noticed that so many others felt the same way — balancing themselves on one finger on the chrome poles," Beck says in an interview.
Then a New York newspaper published an investigation into subway surface germs, and found streptococcus and E. coli in subway cars, molds on platforms, and fecal germs on ticket machines.
"I thought, `There's got to be a better way,'" she says.
What's more, hand sanitizers don't prevent that squeamish feeling you might get touching a somewhat sticky or slimy pole, Beck says.
So she teamed up with a glove maker and stitched in a decal complete with the Statue of Liberty and buildings from a handful of urban centres in the U.S. She's been getting lots of orders from Toronto as well, she says, selling them on citymitts.com. If there are enough, she might consider adding the CN Tower to the glove.
But Toronto has some plans that may render products like hers pointless. This week, the TTC will decide on a new subway car. That new design will have what is believed to be a first: an antimicrobial covering on all surfaces that are meant to be held, such as vertical and horizontal bars and metal handles.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
`I found out that many people who use public transit do so under deep distress'
Stan Dolberg, TranStrap inventor, on his website
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Heald, project manager for the new TTC trains, says the covering — really a plastic coating, again with silver ions — is not the result of user complaints. "It was just really a new technology becoming available that could perhaps enhance the feel-good factor for the passenger," he says. "If they have an increased level of confidence in the cleanliness of the TTC, maybe more would be willing to leave their cars at home."
He could not pinpoint the coatings' cost, but said it's "marginal."
Is it money well spent? Are these entrepreneurs, and now the TTC, playing into unfounded fears?
The subway is actually kept relatively clean. "Compared to my desk," jokes TTC spokesperson Marilyn Bolton, "I'd say they're very clean." All cars are swept and dusted each day, and washed with an industrial-strength cleaner, Mirachem 500, every 25 days.
And studies have repeatedly shown that public transit is not the worst culprit when it comes to germs.
A study earlier this year in Korea showed that handles on shopping carts had about three times more bacteria than those on public transit.
Previous studies have shown that conventional wisdom is often far from accurate. For instance, people are exposed to more microbes on their office phones and keyboards than on a toilet seat.
Still, big business tells us we need antimicrobial soaps and santizing wipes. There are now even ballpoint pens and cellphones with antimicrobial properties. Institutions such as hospitals get ever more diligent.
"We see it more and more," Heald says. "Hospitals increase their levels of cleanliness to ensure that they constantly stay on top of bacteria and microbes, and essentially the cascade is starting into different areas."
But proponents don't think of themselves as obsessive-compulsive, or even germophobic.
Susan Williamson, a retired TTC subway driver, says, "After working down there 20 years, I've seen the worst of the worst. I just don't like touching the stanchions."
She's no clean freak, she insists. "But I want clean food, a clean bed and a clean bathroom. I'm appalled these days at how many times I go into public washrooms and people come out of a stall and don't wash their hands."
So on Friday, she ordered a pair of Beck's gloves. For one less worry on her daily trek.
Howard Hughes would be so proud
TRANSIT | New products to shield germaphobes from bugs on a (subway) train. By Andrew Chung
Aug. 27, 2006. 01:00 AM
ANDREW CHUNG
Oh, woe is Emily Wang when she boards the subway. All those gleaming steel bars, beckoning her to caress them, hold them, lest she be thrown around as the train lurches ahead.
But no, she will not. The possibilities are endless: traces of blood, urine, excrement, nasal spray, saliva, parasites, bacteria, viruses ... well, she'll do anything to avoid the bars. "They're just gross," says the 18-year-old high school student. "I don't think they clean them at all."
Outside Union Station, she holds her purse and explains her strategy. After entering a subway car, she finds something, like a stanchion or a partition, against which she can lean. Sometimes using her hands is unavoidable, though. And for those occasions, she says, motioning to her white short-strapped purse, she carries Purell hand sanitizer.
Perhaps it's undeserved, but Toronto's subway system, by virtue of its public — and very crowded — nature, has, like most other big transit systems, a reputation as a place where filthy hands and other body parts leave germs.
So many people nowadays seem to worry about germs. If they're not manoeuvring, Wang-like, on the subway, they're opening door handles with elbows, or flushing public toilets with feet, or typing on an ATM keypad with knuckles. Are we all turning into latter-day versions of Howard Hughes?
Even if we're not, it had to happen: a growing number of entrepreneurs, and even the Toronto Transit Commission itself, have set out to do something about these anxieties.
This year, the TranStrap was launched in the U.S. It's a personal hand loop that you hook on the subway overhead bar, thus avoiding any unwanted contact. "I found out that many people who use public transit do so under deep distress," writes inventor Stan Dolberg on his website, transtrap.com. "They worry about getting sick from sharing bars and poles." Then came the "City Mitt," a performance microfibre glove embedded with silver ions, which are naturally antimicrobial, says Emily Beck, the developer from Wilmington, Del., who also works in New York.
When she moved to Manhattan and took the subway for the first time, she found it "extremely dirty, and noticed that so many others felt the same way — balancing themselves on one finger on the chrome poles," Beck says in an interview.
Then a New York newspaper published an investigation into subway surface germs, and found streptococcus and E. coli in subway cars, molds on platforms, and fecal germs on ticket machines.
"I thought, `There's got to be a better way,'" she says.
What's more, hand sanitizers don't prevent that squeamish feeling you might get touching a somewhat sticky or slimy pole, Beck says.
So she teamed up with a glove maker and stitched in a decal complete with the Statue of Liberty and buildings from a handful of urban centres in the U.S. She's been getting lots of orders from Toronto as well, she says, selling them on citymitts.com. If there are enough, she might consider adding the CN Tower to the glove.
But Toronto has some plans that may render products like hers pointless. This week, the TTC will decide on a new subway car. That new design will have what is believed to be a first: an antimicrobial covering on all surfaces that are meant to be held, such as vertical and horizontal bars and metal handles.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
`I found out that many people who use public transit do so under deep distress'
Stan Dolberg, TranStrap inventor, on his website
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Heald, project manager for the new TTC trains, says the covering — really a plastic coating, again with silver ions — is not the result of user complaints. "It was just really a new technology becoming available that could perhaps enhance the feel-good factor for the passenger," he says. "If they have an increased level of confidence in the cleanliness of the TTC, maybe more would be willing to leave their cars at home."
He could not pinpoint the coatings' cost, but said it's "marginal."
Is it money well spent? Are these entrepreneurs, and now the TTC, playing into unfounded fears?
The subway is actually kept relatively clean. "Compared to my desk," jokes TTC spokesperson Marilyn Bolton, "I'd say they're very clean." All cars are swept and dusted each day, and washed with an industrial-strength cleaner, Mirachem 500, every 25 days.
And studies have repeatedly shown that public transit is not the worst culprit when it comes to germs.
A study earlier this year in Korea showed that handles on shopping carts had about three times more bacteria than those on public transit.
Previous studies have shown that conventional wisdom is often far from accurate. For instance, people are exposed to more microbes on their office phones and keyboards than on a toilet seat.
Still, big business tells us we need antimicrobial soaps and santizing wipes. There are now even ballpoint pens and cellphones with antimicrobial properties. Institutions such as hospitals get ever more diligent.
"We see it more and more," Heald says. "Hospitals increase their levels of cleanliness to ensure that they constantly stay on top of bacteria and microbes, and essentially the cascade is starting into different areas."
But proponents don't think of themselves as obsessive-compulsive, or even germophobic.
Susan Williamson, a retired TTC subway driver, says, "After working down there 20 years, I've seen the worst of the worst. I just don't like touching the stanchions."
She's no clean freak, she insists. "But I want clean food, a clean bed and a clean bathroom. I'm appalled these days at how many times I go into public washrooms and people come out of a stall and don't wash their hands."
So on Friday, she ordered a pair of Beck's gloves. For one less worry on her daily trek.
S
scarberiankhatru
Guest
"And studies have repeatedly shown that public transit is not the worst culprit when it comes to germs."
For a while, CityTV's Laura diBattista's bread and butter was testing various public and private surfaces for germs...the results were always surprising.
For a while, CityTV's Laura diBattista's bread and butter was testing various public and private surfaces for germs...the results were always surprising.
B
bizorky
Guest
Yummy!
S
stokell
Guest
I don't understand how a plastic coating will prevent you from getting E. Coli on your hands.
C
cdl42
Guest
The plastic coating kills E. Coli, so there's less out there to get on your hands in the first place.
what are all these things doing to people's natural tolerances? When the great pandemic which many have been prediciting finally comes, it seems like these paranoid folks will be the most susceptible.
what are all these things doing to people's natural tolerances? When the great pandemic which many have been prediciting finally comes, it seems like these paranoid folks will be the most susceptible.
B
Brighter Hell
Guest
Ironic isn't it? The germ-phobes will be the germs' first victims.
A
AlvinofDiaspar
Guest
Honestly, the easiest way to deal with it is to wash one's hands, period. That's what they should have been doing in the first place.
AoD
AoD
S
Suicidal Gingerbread Man
Guest
what are all these things doing to people's natural tolerances? When the great pandemic which many have been prediciting finally comes, it seems like these paranoid folks will be the most susceptible.
Getting exposed to bacteria on the subway won't increase your tolerance. Most tolerance is determined in infancy. You want to increase your kid's tolerance? Make sure you have pets in the house when they are babies and toddlers. It increases their natural resistance.
Personally, I would not think of riding the subway without washing my hands afterwards. But if this helps, I'm all for it. Anything to encourage people to use transit.
B
building babel
Guest
If the next pandemic is like the Spanish Flu of 1918, the most susceptible will be fit and healthy dudes in their twenties.
... in which case I'll speak highly of all of you, and say what a great bunch of guys you were.
... in which case I'll speak highly of all of you, and say what a great bunch of guys you were.