New TTC Subway Cars

[unimaginative2]

Wow... it's amazing. The article right there says "as much as $100 million." Then somebody says $200 million would be a lot. Now everybody's saying it's actually costing $200 million. It's like the gun registry all over again.

You know exactly what I mean, cdl, and I can tell you that the mayors, MPs, MPPs, and citizens of the North will view it as the TTC closing that plant.

Whether or not Torontonians "understand" the rest of Ontario and Canada, adopting a policy that would cause tremendous harm to another Ontario community would breed resentment in vast swaths of the province. It's a self-destructive move as this would not bode well next time Toronto goes cap in hand to the provincial government.

If contribution to economic growth is all that matters, right now higher levels of government should be putting every dime into Alberta and ignoring Toronto.

I ride the TTC every day, and I would personally find it hard to support additional gas tax funding if it was going to support direct competitors to Ontario businesses, directly costing hundreds of Ontarians their jobs.

Fortunately, the commissioners have enough foresight to make the right decision.

 

[Antiloop33rpm]

unimaginative: Well put. I can understand choosing Siemens if the difference in price were quite staggering, say, $400 million. But if the difference were to come down to even say $200 million than I would very much be infavour of choosing Bombardier.

But simply looking at the bottom line is a horribley short sighted way to approach the issue. A plant closing in Thunder Bay would have a large negative impact on not just the city itself obviously but the province as whole. Ok, so Toronto saves some money, but what happens to all the people who are out a job? For anyone who grown up in a rural area or small town, they are well aware that when times are tough, when plants close down, people tend to head to the cities en masse where social services, housing and other municipal services are likely to see a spike in use. And even if people stay in the city in which they lost their job, provincial services are going to find themselves under a heavy burden. Add to that the stress and strain that unemployment can put on families trying to get by, relationships, and even rises in activities such as crime and gambling.

And as unimaginative said, maybe a little more cooperation between urban, suburban and rural, Southern Ontario and Northern Ontario, east and west, whatever divide you want to pick, would help both sides. If Im a farmer in Southwestern Ontario it would be tough for me to think of a reason to help out cities when they have done little for me. Likewise, if Im living in Toronto its going to be tough for me want to vote for economic help to Northern Ontario after it suffered a major hit to its industries because people stopped buying Canadian products because people in the city wanted to save a few bucks and caused people up north to vote against pro urban issues.

Im not saying choose Bombardier no questions asked. Be realistic in examining the options. But also look at cause and effect and see whether the savings to one city would be enough to outweigh any negative outcomes to a cities that would be affected by the lose of major orders to Canadian manufacturers.

 

[allabootmatt]

We already support the rest of the province, and the country, to the tune of billions of dollars every year. Additionally, while the argument that building cars in Ontario means more tax revenue for the Ontario government, the 99% probability is that that tax revenue will never find its way to the city, as it is more than self-sufficient. While I sympathise with the plight of Thunder Bay, the TTC has an obligation to Toronto taxpayers and riders, who are responsible for the vast, vast majority of its revenues, to get the absolute best price.

 

[cdl42]

"The self-absorption of some Torontonians never ceases to amaze me. The citizens of Thunder Bay are paying for the subway cars through their provincial and federal taxes."

Key words... "provincial and federal taxes". Not "City of Toronto taxes" Subsidise away, I've got no problems with that. But the subsidy should not be coming from the TTC who simply cannot afford it. We tried that before... it's called the SRT.

If the northern MPPs really cared that much about it, how about some votes to give Toronto back some of its money so it can build some more subway lines, requiring even more subway trains? Or money to GO?*

If the Thunder Bay plant shuts down, the paper headlines will not read "City of Toronto shuts down train plant", it will read "Bombardier shuts down train plant". Ultimately, shutting down the plant will be based upon a business decision, not a political one. If a GM plant in Windsor shuts down should it be pinned upon "it's their fault Torontonians didn't buy enough of our cars"?

I also see that NYC runs subway cars built in Japan and in Canada (from the plant in Thunder Bay?). Were Calgary's new Siemens cars built in Canada?

Calling working within one's financial constraints "self-absorbtion" is both foolish and offensive.


* Don't forget that GO's bilevels are also built in Thunder Bay. A product that, while originally developed for Toronto, has been an extremely successful export product now being operated across North America. That's 385 cars right there as well. There is no way in hell that anyone can claim that Toronto hasn't been beneficial to Thunder Bay.

 

[unimaginative2]

Antiloop put it wonderfully, but I'll just address some of the new points. I can't emphasize enough that the vast majority of the funding for these new cars is not coming from Toronto, it's coming from the province and the federal government.

Comparing this plant to a car plant is completely faulty logic. A business like Bombardier in Thunder Bay depends on just a few contracts a year, all of which come from governments. The TTC will single-handedly decide the fate of 600 of the best jobs in Northern Ontario.

The New York subway cars were assembled in Plattsburgh, New York.

I can guarantee you, as someone working in the field, that the headlines in Thunder Bay (and all across the North) will read "Toronto closes Bombardier plant." If it's self interest, then here's some consequences for you: MPP Mike Gravelle, as Government Caucus Chair, sits on the most powerful committee of cabinet, Policies and Planning. If the TTC forces the shutdown of the second-largest employer in his city (and second-largest manufacturer in the North), I would bet you that he will switch from a very strong supporter of new TTC funding to a very strong opponent. The same can be said for all the other Northern MPPs, who will find common cause with all the rural MPPs. They will stand up in caucus every time, reminding their colleagues of the tremendous impact the City of Toronto's decision had on their communities. I guarantee that will have a serious impact on TTC funding, and it'll be a lot more than $100 million. The fact is, there are 12 million people in Ontario, and 9.5 of them don't live in Toronto.

 

[Antiloop33rpm]

We already support the rest of the province, and the country, to the tune of billions of dollars every year.

Where do the natural resources to keep the city functioning come from? Food from the rural areas of the provinces. Mineral and metals from the Canadian Shield. Wood from the Northern forests. Georgian Bay for cottage country for city dwellers. The land that is being mined and forested also finds many of its offices in the city. Barrack Gold and other mining companies would likely not be what they are today where it not for their chance to exploit the Canadian wilderness. Of course the case of Calgary and its dependency on the landscape and small towns such Fort McMurray et al should be rather self evident.

Its all well and good to talk about the economy that Toronto and other urban areas produce and sustain but it is a two way street and the notion that cities like Toronto somehow prop up the 'have not' areas is getting a little tiresome.

If the northern MPPs really cared that much about it, how about some votes to give Toronto back some of its money so it can build some more subway lines, requiring even more subway trains? Or money to GO?

How about Toronto offer up some solid, rational reasons as too why other areas of the province should help them. Why not minimize rhetoric trying to portary the city as the center of the universe and the glue that holds the country together and work with other regions and a co-operative manner? Ive seen lots of small city or even rural newspapers adressing and discussing urban issues, but it is rare when I see The Toronto Star or Montreal Gazette venture into the countryside and bring to the attention of urbanites the problems that those living in Northern or rural areas of the provinces face.

We tried that before... it's called the SRT.

Which came out of OTDC (later URDC), a state sponsored company and not really of the same nature as Bombardier.

If the Thunder Bay plant shuts down, the paper headlines will not read "City of Toronto shuts down train plant", it will read "Bombardier shuts down train plant". Ultimately, shutting down the plant will be based upon a business decision, not a political one.

True. It is not directly the cities fault either as much as it is the citizens who voice their opinions which may tip the scales in favour of cheaper, overseas Siemens as opposed to locally built Bombardier. If thats what people decide, well, so be it. But lets use Wal-Mart as a parellel. The company comes into a small town, everyone decides to abandon small businesses in favour of saving money for their own benefit. Thats fine. But what is left is a town with minimal local businesses, higher unemployed or underemployed people, and nothing on which to build the towns growth on other than one homogenous business with no connection or respect for the town its in.

But some people saved some money so who cares about the lesser off. No different than this case could turn out. Sure Toronto may save some money, but, at what expense? And if I am living outside of Thunder Bay and Toronto and simply a casual observer in another part of the province, and I watch one city suffer because another city wanted to save a few bucks, well, I would expect Toronto to have a good reason as to why I should think that the any other decisions they make will not negatively affect my region in the same way, especially if they intend to look to other regions to support them in gaining more attention from the province.

 

[cdl42]

"I can guarantee you, as someone working in the field, that the headlines in Thunder Bay (and all across the North) will read "Toronto closes Bombardier plant.""

You work in the newspaper field?
I guarantee you that headline would not read that, because that doesn't make sense.

"I can't emphasize enough that the vast majority of the funding for these new cars is not coming from Toronto, it's coming from the province and the federal government."

But is the funding based upon the cost of the cars? No, the TTC has a certain amount of money to work with, based upon gas-tax agreements. A more expensive purchase means less money for the TTC, plain and simple.

And please stop making emotional arguments based upon your belief that we're all ignorant twits who can't understand that there is a world beyond Toronto. It's just as offensive as pretending that everyone outside the city is a yokel.

"How about Toronto offer up some solid, rational reasons as too why other areas of the province should help them."

I thought we had these reasons coming out of our wahoo? The board of trade's many reports on this topic is a place to start.

"Why not minimize rhetoric trying to portary the city as the center of the universe and the glue that holds the country together and work with other regions and a co-operative manner?"

I fail to see how this relates to the current argument or how the changes things.

"Which came out of OTDC (later URDC), a state sponsored company and not really of the same nature as Bombardier."

But still the same issue. The TTC wanted to build a standard light-rail line, but to encourage jobs in the province the TTC was forced to go with UTDC. The project ended up being highly expensive, with extra costs being borne by the TTC and the Toronto taxpayer (eventually leading to a lawsuit) and in the long run didn't save those Bombardier jobs in Kingston.

 

[dan e 1980]

since it's a siemens train, will it attract more female riders?

does it make me gay if i use it?

 

[rbtaylor]

Aside from the fact that it is up to $100M (Siemens has not seen the TTC specs and Bombardier has not yet given a price) I would say that it is not worth it.

If the plant in Thunder Bay did close, it would then become virtually impossible to ever purchase Canadian built subway cars again.

20 years will have passed between the last T1 order before another opportunity after this one comes up. Significant amounts of knowledge in this area will have been lost.

Building and tooling a brand new plant is difficult enough without having to train staff in the area. Little differences between building planes and trains that the workers don't understand because it will have been their first subway order can quickly add up to make maintenance a nightmare.


If the ThunderBay closed there is no way around high cross-continental shipping fees, exchange rate fluctuation, etc. for all orders going forward.

A short term cost of 5% is cheap insurance against long term unknown variables.

 

[adma]

I have many issues with labour practices in China, but let's get one thing clear - one doesn't use slave labour to build complex machinery like trains. You just don't.

Sure you do. And they wear coolie hats and chatter jibberish. Why, the plant owner will even have one of them escort you by rickshaw.

"Ah so", indeed.

 

[cdl42]

"If contribution to economic growth is all that matters, right now higher levels of government should be putting every dime into Alberta and ignoring Toronto."

Now, now... I don't think anyone has brought up an economic growth argument. The main debate has been about the ability to pay.


The crux of my argument is based upon proper divisions of government, just so things don't always get so muddled. In recent years, overlapping between levels seems to have gotten terrible, causing nothing but confusion and animosity. For example, health care is within the responsibility of all four levels of government.

Maintaining the economic viability of Ontario and of Canada is the interest and responsibility of the governments of Ontario and Canada. The responsibility of the government of Toronto is to maintain the economic viability of Toronto. Ensuring the survival and success of the TB Bombardier plant is certainly within the interest of Ontario, and therefore the responsibility lies with the province (and the feds).

There is only one taxpayer (gawd I hate that adage), and I support my provincial tax dollars going towards a subsidy. You have made the economic argument for that in your previous posts, unimaginative. But I don't support my city and TTC dollars being spent for that purpose. The responsibility of the TTC is to use its limited funding to run the best transit service possible for its users, and if they choose to spend their funding on other things, they are not doing their job. It's just about sound policy.

No different than other types of subsidy like economic development. The City of Toronto shouldn't be paying for trade missions in order to get more contracts for TB's Bombardier plant, but I consider it imperative that the province does. Does that mean I don't support the good people of Thunder Bay? Heck no.

And honestly, I don't think you give northerners enough credit, you seem to be making them out to be naive. They understand as well as any that there are always multiple factors.

 

[SD2]

Interesting discussion!

Its all well and good to talk about the economy that Toronto and other urban areas produce and sustain but it is a two way street and the notion that cities like Toronto somehow prop up the 'have not' areas is getting a little tiresome.

It's more than a notion...it's reality.

How about Toronto offer up some solid, rational reasons as too why other areas of the province should help them. Why not minimize rhetoric trying to portary the city as the center of the universe and the glue that holds the country together and work with other regions and a co-operative manner?

As you said, it's a two-way street. Why should the city, which is strapped for cash, pay extra just to help Thunder Bay, when tax dollars from the city are already helping them?

 

[SD2]

Whether or not Torontonians "understand" the rest of Ontario and Canada, adopting a policy that would cause tremendous harm to another Ontario community would breed resentment in vast swaths of the province. It's a self-destructive move as this would not bode well next time Toronto goes cap in hand to the provincial government.

It's not a policy that would cause tremendous harm to another Ontario community, but rather one that would minimize the harm to us. Considering the amount of support communities around the province receive from Toronto, I don't think the city is asking much to put their interests first in this instance.

I ride the TTC every day, and I would personally find it hard to support additional gas tax funding if it was going to support direct competitors to Ontario businesses, directly costing hundreds of Ontarians their jobs.

Just as many would find it hard to support a move that would cost a cash-strapped public transit system millions upon millions more than necessary...

Fortunately, the commissioners have enough foresight to make the right decision.

If you read the article, the TTC commisioners are basing their decision on cost...they expect a better deal from Bombardier...

Im actually not against your stance, in general. I'd always prefer the business go to a Canadian company. But cdl makes a valid point...the TTC's first responsibility is to the city and it's taxpayers.

 

[Antiloop33rpm]

It's more than a notion...it's reality.

If you look at the situation in purely economics terms, then sure, the idea that Toronto is king might be arguable. But if you consider the other contributions that come from rural and Northern areas, then Toronto has just as many important dependencies.

And Im someone will bring up the notion of who needs those other areas of the country given that just about everything can bought overseas at a cheaper rate. And that is probably true for many items.

But the economy can change in a hurry and if one day oil prices rise high enough to degrade all the advantages of importing food and goods or cost of production rises in other ways then it might just be that locally produced products become a wiser alternative. Of course if you dismantle all of our local industries believing their is an endless sea of cheap goods overseas and economic times change, its going to be to be a tall task to rebuilt some of the very mechanisms we seem so quick to disregard in the name of a few dollars saved.

As you said, it's a two-way street. Why should the city, which is strapped for cash, pay extra just to help Thunder Bay, when tax dollars from the city are already helping them?

Why should places like Thunder Bay even exist then? Why not reduce Northern settlements to a bare minimum turning them into company towns like Fort McMurray and moving everyone into the city instead. That solves the problem of needy cities. Same too go for some of those have not provinces. Just move the citizens to wealthier provinces were they can become part of a 'productive' society et voila!

And why should I pay such high prices for lumber anyways? Why cant we cut the wages of forestry workers so that I can save a few cents off of each foot of 2 x 4 lumber I buy? And what about those damn unions? Dismantle them all, pay GM workers $9 an hour and shave a few dollars off of my next car! After all, everyone knows their job isnt really that hard. And speaking of which, I hate that when I buy Tide the cost is inflated because of all the money going to advertising and marketing people. Why not fire all those people so I can save a loonie next time I buy washing detergent. I want more money! Fire whoever you have to! Reduce wages in anyway! I dont care about any consequences and ballacks to everyone so long as I can save a few dollars!

And that reminds me. Why the hell should my hard earned money go to those greedy people in Toronto? What do they need buses and subways for? They can just walk or buy a car or ride a bike. And spending city money on street furniture, what a silly idea.

Was that all a little over the top? Sure it was. But thats the point.

You can either get into a stupid pissing match where one side cries because they are the poor victim not getting enough money some level of government, and the other side is whining that no one gives them respect and they are paying out too much money. Then one side decides not to vote for someone because that might benefit someone else, then the other side enacts revenge by denying the other one of their needs. And it goes back and forth, people spit rhetoric and energy is wasted on arguing over who is taking it the deepest.

Or you can act in a grown up manner and accept the fact that society functions through co-operation, cohabitation and understanding that various parts play various roles that all tie in together and make things work (in the best possible way humans can manage). Sure on group could function without the other (ie Toronto without Thunder Bay or Thunder Bay without Toronto) but it is because of the fact that those two entities (small city/big city) work together that both sides benefit.

 

[dan e 1980]

Antiloop33rpm, what your suggesting is communist by nature.
you see, if we don't buy from china, we're supporting the communist cause.