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New TTC Subway Cars

From the article:
"It's in the long-term interest of all public-transit systems in this country to ensure that we retain a facility for constructing subway cars in this country.
Can someone please explain how cash strapped transit systems will benefit by purchasing overpriced equipment from an inefficient supplier? Realize that this issue has nothing to do with Thunder Bay, and everything to do with the fact that the TTC may ultimately be forced to purchase from potentially the highest priced bidder. It's ridiculous. Wouldn't matter if the plant was located right in Downsview Park.

Sadly, it is true that Toronto will be blamed. Unfortunately people won't realize that if the plant closes, it's because Bombardier abused its guarantee to purchase agreement and let itself lose that competitive edge. Is it any wonder that Bombardier has closed plant after plant? It's no longer competitive, and therefore I can't think of one reason for the TTC to purchase overpriced equipment from them.
 
It's hardly no longer competitive! Siemens is claiming it can build for a few percent less. Bombardier is the largest rail equipment manufacturer in the world. It's hardly some fringe organization being propped up.
 
Better asked Metrolink out LA who has brought GO double Deck cars from Thunder Bay on a sole base source since they stated up as to why it cost them $100 million dollars less to buy new coaches from South Korea?

The low bidder was over 25% below the 2nd bidder price while TB was the third low bidder this month.

The US has a buy Amercia policy.

The first 2 bidders were below the budget cost for these new coaches.

Metrolink awarded the contract to South Korea just over a week ago.

Just think what TTC could do with that extra $100 million, more buses, new LRT's, more service.

Lets see what 25% works out to be on $750 million...........$187.5 Million saving or $562.5 million total cost.
 
Of course if you dismantle all of our local industries believing their is an endless sea of cheap goods overseas and economic times change, its going to be to be a tall task to rebuilt some of the very mechanisms we seem so quick to disregard in the name of a few dollars saved.

Well, Im not talking about dismantling all our local industries. In this case, we're talking about one particular instance.

And $100 million is a lot more than just a "few dollars saved".


And that reminds me. Why the hell should my hard earned money go to those greedy people in Toronto? What do they need buses and subways for? They can just walk or buy a car or ride a bike. And spending city money on street furniture, what a silly idea.


That actually reminds me of a letter I read in the Star a long while ago. A woman from Saskatchewan was complaining that she was tired of her tax dollars going towards helping Toronto because the city couldn't live within it's means. The reality was (and I suppose "is") that we were actuallly supporting her with our tax dollars. I suppose the same could be said in this case - their hard earned money isn't being used on us...just more of our hard earned money being used on ourselves.




Or you can act in a grown up manner and accept the fact that society functions through co-operation, cohabitation and understanding that various parts play various roles that all tie in together and make things work (in the best possible way humans can manage). Sure on group could function without the other (ie Toronto without Thunder Bay or Thunder Bay without Toronto) but it is because of the fact that those two entities (small city/big city) work together that both sides benefit.

I don't think anyone here is suggesting they don't cooperate. But it's not really a matter of two cities working together; it's a matter of a corporation providing good value to a transit organization that doesn't really have extra money to throw around.

I'd much rather they used Bombardier...but if the price gap is that huge then I can understand them going with the cheaper alternative.

Perhaps the onus should be on Bombardier to earn the business rather than on the TTC to spend money it doesn't have subsidizing another city.

In any case, according to the article Bombardier should be giving them the better deal, so hopefully this all works out for everyone.
 
I can guarantee you, as someone working in the field, that the headlines in Thunder Bay (and all across the North) will read "Toronto closes Bombardier plant." If it's self interest, then here's some consequences for you:

I'm in support of buying bombardier, however, in relation to your comment, how much worse could it get. The TTC realistilcally over the last decade has only gotten false promises. Which is why, I would demand from sr levels of government that they foot the difference, or the TTC goes for the cheaper option. When the sr level of gov'ts do their cost benefit calcs., they will pay up.

Anyways, these rural MPPs already band together towards their common rural agenda, the cause effect you state is definately overstated, especially when what affects Toronto, affects the GTA, which is realistically 5-8.5 million (depending on how you calculate it) of the 12 million on Ontario.
 
Antiloop:

For the record, I am actually for giving the contract to Bombardier (for some of the reasons mentioned by rbtaylor), but some of the arguments put forth here demands closer inspection.

Where do the natural resources to keep the city functioning come from? Food from the rural areas of the provinces. Mineral and metals from the Canadian Shield. Wood from the Northern forests. Georgian Bay for cottage country for city dwellers. The land that is being mined and forested also finds many of its offices in the city. Barrack Gold and other mining companies would likely not be what they are today where it not for their chance to exploit the Canadian wilderness.

It isn't like Toronto has an exclusive, below market price arrangement with the hinterland for all these natural resources. Certainly, the hinterland also have the freedom in principle to sell their goods to other locales, at a price that is determined by the market.

How about Toronto offer up some solid, rational reasons as too why other areas of the province should help them. Why not minimize rhetoric trying to portary the city as the center of the universe and the glue that holds the country together and work with other regions and a co-operative manner? Ive seen lots of small city or even rural newspapers adressing and discussing urban issues, but it is rare when I see The Toronto Star or Montreal Gazette venture into the countryside and bring to the attention of urbanites the problems that those living in Northern or rural areas of the provinces face.

Why not offer some solid, rational reasons as to why other areas of the province should be helped by the capital outflow from Toronto, when the very real needs of the city isn't met, at the risk of jeapordizing the 'goose that lays the golden egg'? Not to minimize the problems Northern and rural area faces (which there are plenty of), but that reality doesn't seem to be the priority of certain decision makers calling from the forementioned areas. If as you say, decision making should be a 2 way street, it's high time a certain side demonstrate some of that largesse.

Or you can act in a grown up manner and accept the fact that society functions through co-operation, cohabitation and understanding that various parts play various roles that all tie in together and make things work (in the best possible way humans can manage). Sure on group could function without the other (ie Toronto without Thunder Bay or Thunder Bay without Toronto) but it is because of the fact that those two entities (small city/big city) work together that both sides benefit.

Except that in the globalized world, cooperation, cohabitation and understanding doesn't necessarily have to take place within the national scale.

unimaginative:

Bombardier is the largest rail equipment manufacturer in the world. It's hardly some fringe organization being propped up.

Out of curosity, I wonder how much Federal subsidies the forementioned firm has received over the years?

AoD
 
Let's remember that it is a spokesperson of a Bombardier competitor who is quoting this extra $100 million dollar cost. As of yet, I don't think either manufacturer has stated any accurate pricing as there is no contract to bid on as of yet. This is a little press agentry on the part of Siemens.
 
Let's remember that it is a spokesperson of a Bombardier competitor who is quoting this extra $100 million dollar cost. As of yet, I don't think either manufacturer has stated any accurate pricing as there is no contract to bid on as of yet. This is a little press agentry on the part of Siemens.
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As I just stated above that if Metrolink can save $100 million on a $400 million bid for GO Bi-level coaches this month, then how much can be save on TTC budget of $750 million for these new trains? $750 figure is TTC figure with some input by Bombardier.

The General Manger wanted an RFP in the first place as he knows that TTC can obtain a better price than what is being done now. It is not hard to send the same RFP that Bombardier was issued on March 10 now.

The only thing that would happen if the same RFP was issue to the 6 other firms that wants to bid on these new trains would be the extension of the bid date as well moving awarding of the contract from November to Jan 2007.

What is an extra 2 months going to do in getting these new train as well for the H4's if it means saving 10's of millions of dollars?
 
Out of curosity, I wonder how much Federal subsidies the forementioned firm has received over the years?
not nearly as much as similar companies in the united states, europe, and brazil, to name a few.
 
I'd rather the money be pumped backed into our own economy even if it does cost some extra... better than it going to someone elses economy, especially china.
 
Globe: Bombardier Subway Deal - Take from T. Bay

From the Globe:

Thunder Bay looks south for help
Bombardier subway contract could ease some of the region's unemployment pains

ANTHONY REINHART

THUNDER BAY -- As powerful as human nature can be, nature itself has always loomed larger than the humans in Thunder Bay, the population centre of northwestern Ontario's wooded universe.

Its 109,000 residents -- assuming the number hasn't shrunk since the 2001 census -- are fond of turning visitors' eyes toward the natural wonders that surround their small city, most notably the Sleeping Giant, a rock formation that lies, in a strikingly human way, off the shore of Lake Superior, and flat-topped Mount McKay, standing watch high over the south end.

People here are nothing if not appreciative of nature's power to give and to take away; for decades they have hewn a living from the vast forests only to see their industry badly eroded by red tape, politics and high energy prices.

These days, those who aren't eyeing a move to booming Alberta are looking south to Toronto in hope that the nobler aspects of human nature will help them stop the bleeding -- or at least slow it down.

Over the past few weeks, more than 3,000 people here have sent letters to Toronto City Council, urging it to stand behind the Toronto Transit Commission's plan to spend about $700-million on 234 subway cars from Bombardier's Thunder Bay plant without inviting bids from foreign competitors.

In Toronto, a handful of councillors have turned the exclusive negotiations into fodder for a typical election-year dust-up. In Thunder Bay, where the air is clearer and the threats easier to see, the implications of the Bombardier contract resonate far beyond city hall.

"It's the only big industry left around here," Terry Boehler, 44, said last week at the sprawling plant, taking a break from his work inside the unfinished hulk of a new GO Transit railcar, soon to head south for Toronto commuters.

Even at that "big" means a work force of about 450, half of what it was three years ago. The TTC contract, if approved by Toronto council this month, will ensure five years' work for 300 people at this plant, and keep 250 employed at GTA parts suppliers, officials say.

Mr. Boehler, the widowed father of a 14-year-old son, embodies the precariousness of Thunder Bay's once-solid employment market. As a young man, he put in 12 years on the docks before the winds of the global grain trade shifted and blew most of the ships away. He landed a job at Bombardier 10 years ago, but wound up back on the street, on employment insurance and then welfare, after the big layoff in 2003.

"They called me back here last week," said Mr. Boehler, whose name remains on a "spare board" of workers the company calls in to fill vacancies of less than a week.

With an economy so reliant on raw materials that are sought, bought and turned into goods by people living elsewhere, namely Southern Ontario, people here are well attuned to the impacts of decisions made far away from them, where the power rests.

While few in Thunder Bay would begrudge Toronto its privileged role as the country's economic engine, the subway controversy has some wondering if it has forgotten where the fuel for that engine comes from.

"You can't manufacture furniture without wood," Mayor Lynn Peterson said in her office a day after watching Toronto council, by live video link, vote down an attempt to scuttle the TTC's talks with Bombardier. "The interdependency of the communities in this province is far tighter than people realize."

Ms. Peterson cited a local forestry company that spent $600-million on supplies last year: Half of that money went to companies in Southern Ontario; and $270-million of that to Toronto.

Electricity costs are also a sore point in Ontario's northwest. While the region can produce more power than it needs, and do so more cheaply than the nuclear-reliant south, its users still must pay rates, set by decision makers in the south, that are the highest in Canada. These high rates are often cited as a key forestry job killer.

John Irwin expects the axe to fall any time now. He works at a local paper mill, "and they're right on the verge of shutting it down," he says.

With 30 years invested, he'll be in line for a decent severance package. But at 48 he doesn't expect an easy time finding a new job that will carry him into retirement.

Sipping his coffee outside Robin's Donuts, across from a convenience store that sells the Calgary Herald alongside the Toronto papers, Mr. Irwin knows what that could mean.

"I would move, probably out west," he said. "You don't really have a choice."

The limited choices of northwestern Ontarians have led to calls for greater political autonomy from the south; some have even suggested breaking off and joining Manitoba, since their voices would have to carry only as far as Winnipeg, half the distance to reach Toronto.

While separation is unrealistic, the alienation of those calling for it finally seems to be getting some attention at Queen's Park, said Livio Di Matteo, chair of the economics department at Thunder Bay's Lakehead University.

"Since the Manitoba issue came up, there's been a cabinet minister up here about every two weeks," said Dr. Di Matteo, a Thunder Bay native who grew up within view of what is now the Bombardier plant.

Still, he said it shouldn't have to take constant lobbying to get people in Southern Ontario to realize their decisions can have huge ramifications for people in the rest of the province -- people who pay provincial taxes that help to fund Toronto's transit system.

"The average Torontonian thinks everybody [outside Toronto] hates them, and that's not the case," Dr. Di Matteo said. "People here just want to be listened to."

Like just about everyone else here, he hopes the recent political tussles over the subway deal prove to be just that -- politics.

"In an election year, the way to get attention is to stand up for the taxpayer, and it's easier to stand up like that when the jobs are somewhere else," he said.

AoD
 
I don't think we should be implementing job protection purchasing policies. Bombardier is a Canadian company which sells products around the world and if the world implemented such a job protection policy it would likely hurt Bombardier more than it would help. Instead we should be ensuring that are existing policies aren't leading to our own decline.

One idea to balance the effects of globalization is that instead of taxing income the focus should on taxing consumption, especially on items low income families would not find essential. If healthcare and education were completely paid for using consumption taxes then the fact another country does not have public healthcare or quality education would not put us at a competitive disadvantage selling goods on the world market. A product manufactured in a foreign country which has lower living standards can make a product cheaper than a country where the costs of higher living standards are covered in the price of the product. If the costs of higher living standards were covered not by taxing Canadian income earners and Canadian companies (i.e. punishing making money in Canada and bringing money to Canada) but instead covered by consumption taxes then a foreign made product would contribute to the costs of healthcare and education in Canada rather than simply leading to an outflow of Canadian money and jobs. As it stands now people with a low income need to get paid some 29% more than they need in order to cover income tax and have enough money for rent and groceries (both non-taxable).

Another method of balancing the effects of globalization are duties. Free trade should not be allowed between countries without an agreement on acceptable minimum wages based on cost of living and where a country has a lower minimum wage per cost of living a duty should be applied to attempt to balance the effect. Free trade needs to mean equal opportunity. A country with low costs of living would still be able to create a more competitively priced product but it wouldn't be on the backs of underprotected workers.

When jobs are leaving the country taxation needs to focus less on taxing jobs. Similarly when offices are moving out of the 416 there needs to be less focus on taxing offices.
 
I don't think we should be implementing job protection purchasing policies. Bombardier is a Canadian company which sells products around the world and if the world implemented such a job protection policy it would likely hurt Bombardier more than it would help. Instead we should be ensuring that are existing policies aren't leading to our own decline.

This is actually pretty simple. There are advantages to having local knowledge (parts, knowledge availablility, etc.). Simply build those advantages into the bid contract. If Siemens can guarantee labour, parts, etc. availability over a 30 year period taking into account the Canadian inflation rate (not global rate), then they should get the contract.

Once you start putting in all of the details, they'll likely back out pretty quickly.
 
I just can't see what the advantage is of building subway cars hundreds of kilometres from the nearest possible place that would use them. The greenhouse gases required to shift each one must be significant, especially as they can't just be hitched up to a loco and pulled to Toronto given that they are TTC gauge. The production line should be moved to somewhere in the GTA (say Bombardier Downsview - no problem delivering to TTC!) and in exchange perhaps forestry related industries can be identified to be given relocation assistance to TB in addition to stuff like biofuel production from pulp mill tailings.

Why the heck did Hawker-Siddeley ever put the plant there anyway?

The issue of electricity costs is important but one really doesn't have anything to do with the other. There's actually a good case to be made to regionalise electricity pricing but keeping subway manufacture in TB doesn't really help that??
 
Wow! Selective non-competitive bidding, preferential corporate treatment, northern versus southern tensions, lumber woes, electricity price complaints, unemployment, alienation, depopulation, Alberta, Toronto transit, urban politics, provincial politics, provincial separartion, electioneering, Manitoba, job protection, global trade issues, taxation, health care, quality education, rent, groceries, import duties, free trade, inflation, long-distance manufacturing, greenhouse gases, TTC track guage, biofuels, pulp mills, contract details...

Who could ever think that subway cars are boring?
 

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