King-Queen-Roncy Intersection/ROW

[reaperexpress]

I'm still annoyed they didn't take the chance to build a dedicated left turn lane for King St westbound onto the Queensway.. Would have saved so much wasted time for 504 cars trying to get onto Roncesvalles.

Left turn lanes are sorely lacking across the streetcar network. As far as I'm aware there are only a handful across the entire network:
- EBL/WBL Queen at Kingston
- EBL College at Maple Leaf Gardens driveway
- SBL Bathurst at Lakeshore
... and that's it.

Every other time tracks have come up for reconstruction, they just get placed back in the middle of the street because it would be much more expensive to rebuild the road substructure to support the tracks elsewhere and the TTC is typically just scrolling through a maintenance list rather than considering improvements in collaboration with the City. But the benefit of targeted left turn lanes can be very large, namely by providing some key locations to permit left turns without blocking the streetcar tracks.

Some other places which also desperately need left turn lanes include:
- WBL King at Jameson,
- SBL Bathurst at Adelaide,
- NBL Broadview at Danforth.
EDIT TO ADD:
- SBL/NBL Main at Danforth

 

[Northern Light]

Left turn lanes are sorely lacking across the streetcar network. As far as I'm aware there are only a handful across the entire network:
- EBL/WBL Queen at Kingston
- EBL College at Maple Leaf Gardens driveway
- SBL Bathurst at Lakeshore
... and that's it.

Every other time tracks have come up for reconstruction, they just get placed back in the middle of the street because it would be much more expensive to rebuild the road substructure to support the tracks elsewhere and the TTC is typically just scrolling through a maintenance list rather than considering improvements in collaboration with the City. But the benefit of targeted left turn lanes can be very large, namely by providing some key locations to permit left turns without blocking the streetcar tracks.

Some other places which also desperately need left turn lanes include:
- WBL King at Jameson,
- SBL Bathurst at Adelaide,
- NBL Broadview at Danforth.

Let me put in for SB Main Street at Danforth. Buses from 3 routes head east along Danforth (Danforth 113, Cliffside 20 and Dawes 23); they often get held up at the light which doesn't even have an advance green in that direction, at all, ever.

The result can back up other buses trying to exit Main, as well as the 506 streetcar; and that in turn can block NB service into main, because outbound transit vehicles (SB) are blocking the NB streetcar tracks/curb lane, or both.

* edit to add, the advance signal is the low-hanging fruit, as a dedicated left lane would require removing one through lane, or removing the building on the north-east corner of the intersection.

 

[innsertnamehere]

yup. There isn't always space, but in this case it was a full reconstruction and reconfiguration *and* there appears to easily have been the space to accommodate it. It's frustrating it wasn't done.

Really there are a whole bunch of them, more than listed so far. Gerrard EB at Broadview, Dundas EB at the DVP on-ramp, Queen WB at Strachan, Queen WB at the Lansdowne / Jameson jog, Bathurst SB at Fort York & Front, etc, etc, etc. Honestly the city could make a big difference in travel times with a handful of strategic left turn lane reconstructions throughout the network.

 

[reaperexpress]

yup. There isn't always space, but in this case it was a full reconstruction and reconfiguration *and* there appears to easily have been the space to accommodate it. It's frustrating it wasn't done.

In general, adding left turn lanes is not a matter of space. It takes the same space to have 4 traffic lanes as it does to have 3 traffic lanes (2 thru, 1 left turn) and 2 bike lanes. The operations for private motor traffic will usually end up being about the same, since in the current situation one or the other lane is usually blocked by left turns, bicycles, parked cars or streetcars anyway. In the new situation there is actually a lane which can actually provide a decent throughput of motor traffic.

Meanwhile operations for streetcars, bicycles and pedestrians are considerably improved due to the reduced conflicts. Hence why most major downtown streets without streetcar tracks have already been reconfigured this way.

Let me put in for SB Main Street at Danforth. Buses from 3 routes head east along Danforth (Danforth 113, Cliffside 20 and Dawes 23); they often get held up at the light which doesn't even have an advance green in that direction, at all, ever.

The result can back up other buses trying to exit Main, as well as the 506 streetcar; and that in turn can block NB service into main, because outbound transit vehicles (SB) are blocking the NB streetcar tracks/curb lane, or both.

* edit to add, the advance signal is the low-hanging fruit, as a dedicated left lane would require removing one through lane, or removing the building on the north-east corner of the intersection.

110% agree. I used to live in an apartment overlooking that intersection and it drove me nuts seeing the streetcars and buses get stuck there. Somewhere on another computer I have a 3D render I made of the intersection with tracks spread out to create left turn lanes, bicycle lanes.

The challenge with adding a transit-actuated left turn phase there is that the streetcar stop is near-side while the bus stops are far-side. Unfortunately the current TSP system doesn't distinguish buses from streetcars*, so the streetcar sitting at the stop would always max out the left turn signal. Hopefully once the buses start switching over to the new TSP system they revisit this possibility. In my render I had also moved the streetcar stop to a platform on the south side where there's lots of room.

* It is technically possible, but requires a lot of expensive equipment. There are some intersections where this is installed, such as St. Clair & Vaughan (where the Vaughan bus turns off the streetcar ROW) and St Clair & Spadina (where the Forest Hill bus turns off the ROW).

 

[kotsy]

View attachment 416227

View attachment 416228

Will the 504 from Dufferin to Roncy/Dundas W be reinstated as well?

 

[JasonParis]

Not until that next phase is done. I supposed they could turn the 504 around at the carhouse, but I suspect they will keep it at Dufferin Gate. This is probably published somewhere though.

 

[Steve Munro]

Not until that next phase is done. I supposed they could turn the 504 around at the carhouse, but I suspect they will keep it at Dufferin Gate. This is probably published somewhere though.

In the construction notice, the City says that the King car will continue to turn back from Dufferin Loop. The Queen car will be extended west to Dufferin in September and then to Sunnyside in October.

 

[drum118]

In the construction notice, the City says that the King car will continue to turn back from Dufferin Loop. The Queen car will be extended west to Dufferin in September and then to Sunnyside in October.

Aug 7

Assuming hydro has done their work to allow poles to be place to support Sunnyside loop as well the connection to the ROW. Lots of missing hangers from where the new OS connects to the old King OS to the yard. Then, King OS has to be replace.

Still a lot of hydro work to be done.

Track in place across Glendale intersection waiting concrete to be pour to anchor it as well the top coat to allow drivers to cross it than trying the U-turn to the west of it.

Still got the road and curb to be built so traffic is using it than the ROW

 

[Steve Munro]

I noticed that nobody has posted an update here based on the schedule changes planned for September 4, so I will add one. The full article is on my site at: https://stevemunro.ca/2022/08/20/ttc-service-changes-effective-september-4-2022/

The 501 Queen car will be extended west from Bathurst to Dufferin looping at Dufferin Loop. The 501 Queen bus will operate from Dufferin to Long Branch with no Humber short turn branch. At Dufferin, the buses will loop north on Dufferin, east on Peel and south on Gladstone to Queen. This will provide a transfer point with a new, temporary stop southbound on Gladstone connecting with streetcar stops both ways at that intersection. This arrangement is an update I received just today from the TTC.

Because of water main and track work on King at Shaw, the 504 streetcars will run to Exhibition Loop. Also, thanks to the beginning of work to restore track on Adelaide east from Charlotte to York, the 503 cars will run to Wolseley Loop.

Over at Roncesvalles, it is probable that overhead for the south gate will not be completed before the new schedules go into effect. Queen cars will enter service via Roncesvalles, Dundas and Bathurst until they can access the carhouse via the south gate. The north gate will then close and the north quadrant of the KQQR intersection will be completed. At the same time the safety islands on Ronces will be rebuilt to have the correct clearance for Flexity ramps (the same problem that has already been fixed on Spadina). The King bus takes a wandering tour of the west end running from Dundas West Station south to Howard Park, west to Parkside, south to Lake Shore, west to Colborne Lodge, north to The Queensway, east to King, east via King to Atlantic, south to Liberty, east to Strachan, north to King, east to York looping via York, Richmond and University. Transfers between 504 and 501 buses at KQQR will be handled with new temporary stops on King east of the intersection for use by the 504 bus.

Queen streetcar service will be extended to Sunnyside at the October schedule change.

Up at Dundas West, the 505 Dundas car will return to the station loop using the new expanded platform. There is also a major road and track project on College Street. Details in my blog.

 

[drum118]

Sept 5
As of today visit, 501 streetcars are either still detour or on detour for the Labour Day Parade as I saw none for the intersection. If the 501 streetcars are using the KQQR intersection, they are loop the the yard as Sunnyside loop not ready for service.

That orange fence is still as it was on Aug 7. 2 new TTC poles in place, but still missing 2/3 poles to allow the stringing of the loop.

Trench dug on the south side for hydro work and until that is done the new curb and road for the eastbound lanes cannot be built as well connecting to the new road intersection

Westbound platform for Glendale will be on the west side of it. Work is underway for the eastbound platform on the east side of Glendale.

No work has started on the new ROW from Glendale to Parkside Dr.

 

[Steve Munro]

Sept 5
As of today visit, 501 streetcars are either still detour or on detour for the Labour Day Parade as I saw none for the intersection. If the 501 streetcars are using the KQQR intersection, they are loop the the yard as Sunnyside loop not ready for service.

That orange fence is still as it was on Aug 7. 2 new TTC poles in place, but still missing 2/3 poles to allow the stringing of the loop.

Trench dug on the south side for hydro work and until that is done the new curb and road for the eastbound lanes cannot be built as well connecting to the new road intersection

Westbound platform for Glendale will be on the west side of it. Work is underway for the eastbound platform on the east side of Glendale.

No work has started on the new ROW from Glendale to Parkside Dr.

The 501 cars are only using The Queensway for access to the carhouse, not to Sunnyside Loop. The 501 is supposed to be extended there at Thanksgiving weekend, the next schedule change, but I have not seen the official notice yet. In a pinch they could loop around the carhouse.

 

[drum118]

The 501 cars are only using The Queensway for access to the carhouse, not to Sunnyside Loop. The 501 is supposed to be extended there at Thanksgiving weekend, the next schedule change, but I have not seen the official notice yet. In a pinch they could loop around the carhouse.

Thanks
I expected the parade is why I saw no 501. looping the yard is the only option at this time.

If Thanksgiving weekend is the return to Sunnyside loop, Toronto hydro needs a fire under them to get the missing poles work done in the next week or 2. This will to allow TTC to string the loop and connect to the current OS as well do some testing before the weekend.

There is still no connection for the new OS for the intersection to the existing King Line. That may remain until TTC replace the OS from Dufferin to the intersection.

Even King is still close to traffic.

 

[drum118]

Oct 1
Sunnyside loop will not be ready for Thanksgiving weekend or any day this month, as it not string nor has the other missing pole been installed. A few support wires strung to the loop poles, but that's it.

They finally open King St to the intersection considering how long it been ready.

A lane west of Glendale is ready to pour to allow for an left turn eastbound lane. Nothing started on the eastbound platform or rest of the ROW.

A good chunk of hydro is now bury on the south side to allow the new curb to be pour west of where it currently stops. Once the road is rebuilt to Sunny Side Dr, traffic can be shift to it as well the section that been finish moths ago to allow traffic to flow like it supposed to.

Work is underway on Roncesvalles between the intersection and north of the yard north gate with utilities work taking place. Once done, thew whole road will be torn up so new switches and track work be install along with new roads and platform

A few unedited, not tag nor any idea when the rest will be up on my site.

 

[Amare]

This project literally epitomizes everything that's wrong with this city's bureaucracy. I dont see anyway this project is complete by the end of the year, and i'd bet on 501 streetcar "service" returning in early 2023.

And what's funny is that I can also guarantee everyone that the TTC still didn't address the track defect just east of Humber Loop that caused streetcars to crawl through the speed restriction. This is despite there being no streetcars running for over 2 years. By the way, this is a track defect that was discovered shortly after they completed reconstruction of the Queensway ROW which replaced all the rail and base.

 

[crs1026]

This project literally epitomizes everything that's wrong with this city's bureaucracy. I dont see anyway this project is complete by the end of the year, and i'd bet on 501 streetcar "service" returning in early 2023.

And what's funny is that I can also guarantee everyone that the TTC still didn't address the track defect just east of Humber Loop that caused streetcars to crawl through the speed restriction. This is despite there being no streetcars running for over 2 years. By the way, this is a track defect that was discovered shortly after they completed reconstruction of the Queensway ROW which replaced all the rail and base.

You really hit a nerve with this one. Back when the streetcars were running, I would seethe every time I rode over that slow order, knowing it was a construction failure that should never have happened and was swept under the carpet. When service comes back I bet I will seethe some more.

We cannot have the TTC saying “Hey we got 90% of the job done right, that’s good enough” and walk away leaving defects that destroy the potential value of a grade separated streetcar row.

- Paul

PS - of course, with the low operational standard we have come to enjoy on 501 streetcars were probably crawling over that zone to stay within the padded schedule…..or the loop was full of cars laying over, so there was no rush for the operator to get there…..