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GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

The train is lying on a railbed at the bottom of the Don Vally. What force will suddenly drop a 300m long section of well reinforced earth 20 feet?

The plan for the Portland now calls for all land to be raise 1m plus for all future development based on the Don.

The corridor down the Don for GO should be raise a least 2m or higher where there is the head room to do so. There needs to be a break wall on the east side to with stand the force of a higher Don that has never been seen to date.

Someone at GO/Metrolinx should be on the hot seat for not making sure EMS was fully aware about the number of riders on the train as well the situation they were in. It would had speed things up faster.

I like to see someone here try to get a boat up the Don in a flash flood with unknown forces and items coming at you as well not knowing if the river going to see a higher wave of water coming at you. Again people like to people lives at risk by being a chair quarterback. With what was taking place city wide at the time, you can't drop things on a dime and get to this site ASP. Traffic play a great part in slowing response down. Please tell me where you would put a boat into the Don under these condition??

Look at what Doug Ford was doing and where were the police?? I will give him credit for doing it as well any member of the public since they are putting their lives at risk. I have done it as well on the 403 where an accident took place in front of me with the family in the car. 3 of the 5 eastbound lanes were close due to the accident as well one westbound.
 
GO train drama illustrates the risks of Don Valley transit corridor

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...s-time-for-the-train-to-stop/article13103453/

.....

A basic tenet of railroading is that trains don’t proceed if water is hiding the rails. There’s a fear of debris, explained Greg Percy, vice-president for GO capital infrastructure, but there’s a more serious issue as well.

“If it destabilizes the ballast that holds the rail then the rail has a chance to move apart, and that’s a derailment risk,” he said Tuesday.

The Don Valley is the route for key road and rail links that funnel tens of thousands of commuters in and out of the downtown each day.

.....
 
(A question to those in the know: if the engineer knew for sure the flood is coming, could he bypass the regulations and skip the brake test to get out of the flooded area before it's too late?)

The train is lying on a railbed at the bottom of the Don Vally. What force will suddenly drop a 300m long section of well reinforced earth 20 feet?

I would presume that the danger of proceeding forward through water on the tracks is that there may be a washout of the support fill. I would suspect that same dangers could apply if a stationary train is in moving water.

I would also suspect that the engineer would have the physical ability to back up from the front car. It is probably not recommended, but to back away from imminent danger appears to be more prudent than staying stuck and subject the train to the potential hazards of a flood of unknown magnitude.

If a train was stopped due to some type of industrial fire, would the train stay stopped in a cloud of smoke or would it back up.
 
Moving objects adds additional force to the substrate - it would almost certainly be more dangerous than staying stationary. Besides, not the entire track is going to get washed away all at once even in the worst case - but the entire train will have to pass through any washed out section.

And if the train is trapped in a cloud from an industrial fire, perhaps the safest method would be, I don't know, evacuation by having riders walk away from the fire? One certainly won't be running the locomotive towards the smoke without knowing where the fire is.

AoD
 
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(A question to those in the know: if the engineer knew for sure the flood is coming, could he bypass the regulations and skip the brake test to get out of the flooded area before it's too late?)

Having some(;)) experience running trains I can speak to your question.
Without any warning from the RTC the only indication that we have of the track conditions ahead are signal indications, preplanned track restrictions and whatever is in our field of vision. If we're warned by the RTC that something is amiss most times they will usually only tell us to approach a certain mileage prepared to stop. Unless they've gotten a specific report from someone on the ground or another train ahead of us all they would see is an indication on their panel that the controlled block ahead of us is shown as being 'occupied' for an unknown reason, which usually happens when the water level gets above the tracks.

In some locations there are also devices that can detect high water levels and indeed there is one on the Bala sub (Richmond Hill line). This detector was located on a section of track that the train had already past(in a location that had seen previous flooding) and which of course would not have been flooded yet seeing as it went by that location without incident. Seems the flooding was so bad and occurred so fast that it flooded a section of track up river of the detector that had not previously had any high water issues before. Therefore, no such warning would have been given to the train ahead of time. If the crew had heard a high water alert being broadcast for the Bala sub on the standby channel and they are required monitor the standby channel at all times, then they would been required to stop their train immediately. In addition the RTC would also have received this alert and would have immediately contacted them to stop as well.


As for the brake test, sure they could of skipped it... That is if they wanted to get fired and possibly cause a disaster.

Last thing you want is to release the brakes and start moving only to find out latter that the brakes don't work and you can't stop the train (and yes this has happened). Then you could potentially have a far bigger disaster on your hands. There is a saying in the industry, that the rule book is written in blood. Which is quite true since essentially every rule that is in place today is in response to a previous deficiency that had resulted in or may have resulted in a dangerous incident or as a result of an accident and or fatality.

Now, I don't know for sure but its possible that someone in a high enough position of authority can authorize(above the dispatchers and direct superiors, we're talking high up) a train to proceed without doing this brake test in a situation of imminent danger. I'm aware of this having occurred once before during the G20 summit when it appeared that a mob of rioters were about to descend on Union Station. Alas I imagine Transport Canada might of had something to say about that afterwards. Nonetheless, under no circumstances can the train crew authorized themselves to skip this procedure. And without knowing the precise situation on the ground I doubt the higher ups would authorize such action either considering the possible consequences.

Besides, the process of the brake test itself only takes about 2 minutes to complete. It's the 920ft walk back from the engine on uneven ballast for the engineer to get to the cab car that takes the longest time. Once on the cab car the engineer just has to apply a hand brake(in addition to the one the conductor applied on the engine which would have been completed while the engineer was walking to the cab car). Then the engineer will 'cut in' the brakes from the cab car and apply and release the brakes. During which the conductor must observe the application and release of the brakes or brake cylinder on the last piece of equipment. This is because you need to know that the 'brake signal' can be transmitted across the entire train. If the brake pipe is closed at any point in between the first and last car then test will not work on the last car and if they work on the last car then the signal will have been transmitted to every car. Cars can be cut out individually(not an easy process) but this is not allowed without reporting it and no more than 1 coach can be cut out for the train to operate in normal service. So as you can see there are very stringent procedures in place to assure the safe movement of trains. After completing the brake test the conductor would then release the hand brake on the engine, while the engineer releases the hand brake on the cab car. This is done while the train brakes are applied of course.

In addition to the standing brake test, the train must complete a running brake test soon after moving whenever it changes directions. It's yet another layer of safety and basically tells you that yes, the brakes can stop the train from moving. Though its hard to tell exactly how well/quickly they work since you do this test at a very slow speed because its obviously safer to double check that the brakes work when your only doing 15MPH instead of say 60. Now if a crew skipped out on doing the standing brake test and it turns out the train brakes aren't working from the cab, then running brake test will be nothing more than an effort in futility won't it? :eek:

All in all, this situation is not comparable to the G20 one I mentioned since in that case it would of required a crew member to walk all the way back to the to the tail end for the brake test meaning their departure would of been delayed by that walk plus the brake test, which would take 6-7 minutes total. While in the flooding instance the engineer obviously had to walk back to the tail end to change ends anyways so authorizing him to proceed without doing the subsequent brake test would only save about 2 minutes. And this situation likely occurred so quickly that a higher authority might not have been instantly available or a course of action might not have been prepared unlike there G20 riots - a situation that was being closely monitored at all times, all weekend long.


Back to the RH train. After completing the brake test the engineer on the cab car would of then had to contact the RTC in order to receive authorization to reverse direction in CTC as per CROR rule 573. Without being able to see the next signal, which was the case here, they would have been required to get a work authority from the RTC which would permit them to move in the other direction (or any direction for that matter). Its not easy to explain what this means, I suppose I'll try to explain it but I'm not sure if I can do so clearly.

The CTC(Centralized Traffic Control) signal system is normally only set up to give trains directional authorities. This allows for closer spacing in between trains moving in the same direction. There are basically two types of signals - Controlled signals and Intermediate signals. Controlled signals can be controlled by the RTC and are normally only located where trains can switch tracks(called crossovers). In between these controlled signals often there are Intermediate signals. The RTC has absolutely no control over these signals. Instead these signals are controlled automatically by the track circuit depending on the track occupancy and conditions in the blocks ahead of them. They are required because without them the train blocks would be too long and few trains would be able to move over one track in a given period of time. CN & CP, which for the longest time owned most of the signalize tracks(and most of the tracks overall) in this country decided to space the signals around 1.5 miles apart on their busiest lines as this was deemed to be the most optimal spacing for their trains(for passenger trains shorter spacing would have been more optimal). But at the same time they didn't need to make all the signals controlled signals because there is no need for crossovers every mile or two and they didn't want to create an overly complicated system with far more controlled points than what is required when Intermediate signals could rely track conditions to the train crews just as well(and of course its cheaper). If a following train is catching up to the train ahead of it and the signal to enter the block with the leading train is a controlled signal, the signal will be a stop and the following train cannot normally enter the block occupied by the leading train. The RTC could decided to change the route for the following train onto another track if that controlled location has crossovers. But most likely the following train will have to wait until the leading train clears the block ahead of it before it will receive a 'permissive signal' to enter that block itself. In some circumstances the RTC can allow the following train to enter the block occupied by the other train (i.e. if they are coming to 'rescue' a broken down train), but they would need a specific authority called a 'pass stop' from the RTC to do so. In the case of a following train approaching the train ahead of it where the signal is an Intermediate, it will display what is called a Restricting signal. This signal will allow the following train to enter into the block occupied by the other train without requiring any further authority by the RTC. There are certain conditions that the following train must meet in order to do so such as operating it at a speed that will enable it to stop in a short distance and a maximum overall speed of 15MPH. The following train can then continue until its right behind the leading train in the same block. As for the leading train, if the crew on that train suddenly decided that they needed to change directions and back up, like in the case of the Richmond Hill train in question, the signal system in and of itself cannot warn that train that another train has entered its block and is approaching it within the same block nor can it warn the following train that the leading train has changed directions and is now heading straight for it. I'm sure I don't have to explain any further on why this would be a very bad thing.

And that is why trains are normally only permitted to move in one direction and why they must get RTC permission or a work authority to reverse directions. The work authority can only be given in between two controlled locations, in between which there can be multiple Intermediate signals or possibly none at all. This way the RTC can make sure that there are no other trains in an area he has complete control over and guaranty that no other trains can enter into the limits(without addition authority) so as to avoid the possibility of a collision. To change directions without authority is a huge violation because of the possible consequences and absolutely no one can authorize a train crew to circumvent this rule.

Problem is that it can take some time to get a work authority. The crew first needs to contact the RTC, which in some cases can take several minutes if the RTC for that subdivision is dealing with other issue or giving out another authority already. Outside of a emergency call, the RTC handles all request on a first come first serve basis. At that point it was not yet a emergency situation since they crew had no idea yet that they had been cut off. Once establishing communication with the RTC, they will then give a specific set of instructions over the radio which must be written down by the crew(he repeats them slowly to accommodate this). These instructions must then be repeated exactly word for word by the crew member and acknowledged as a being correct before the authority can be granted and acted upon. Only then are they free to proceed in the opposite direction.

I hope that answers any(and all :p) questions people may have had about the situation.
 
Now, I don't know for sure but its possible that someone in a high enough position of authority can authorize(above the dispatchers and direct superiors, we're talking high up) a train to proceed without doing this brake test in a situation of imminent danger.

Given the severity of the decision they would have been seeking....I imagine that decision would have taken as long (or longer) than just doing the brake test in the first place ;)

I get why people are upset about this. It could not have been fun being trapped on that train for that long...and we should use it a teachable moment and look for "better ways"...but it was a, highly, unusual set of circumstances and I, for one, am a bit uncomfortable with the level and tone of the Monday morning quarterbacking that I hear (not just here but people chatting around town). I know a couple of people that were on the train and they seem to be the only ones not questioning things...they, in the end, just seem happy that they got out safely (albeit late and wet)....if they are upset about anything its that they did not wait at the office and take a later train ;)
 
The crew tried to get the train moving as quickly as they could, but the water rose so quickly that they simply didn't have enough time to go.

For the record, the high water detectors didn't go off until after 835 passed. While the train eventually would have found the high water, the only reason they stopped was because 833 found some serious bank erosion at mile 9.2 (near where the line crosses over the DVP at Lawrence), and put a call into Commuter Central. CC then contacted 835, told them to stop where they were, cancel the train, and come back.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
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Perhaps it is time to start investigating re-routing RH trains across the Governor's Bridge through Leaside?
 
Perhaps it is time to start investigating re-routing RH trains across the Governor's Bridge through Leaside?

If only that was still an option.
Problem is you'd run into several obstacles now. For one, as I'm sure your aware the tracks on the former CN Leaside connection have long since been torn out and has subsequently the former line been turned it into a bike path by the city. The city current owns the land having purchases it from CN back in 2003 and would likely balk at selling it back. The bridge itself is dilapidated and would need some serious repair work, if not a complete rebuild. And of course you'd have to deal with CP as Metrolinx only owns a the track up to where it connects with CP's mainline the Belleville & North Toronto subs. Even though they would only be using a short stretch of CP tracks they'll like to have some major issues with the idea since the trains will need to cross over from the south to the north track in order to get onto the Leaside connection, thus blocking all tracks for a period of time.
 
vegeta, thanks for detailed reply.

Perhaps it is time to start investigating re-routing RH trains across the Governor's Bridge through Leaside?

How exactly? Ok, You go through Leaside along Don sub, the track is there. Then you hit Belville sub and then... what? Another track along Belville, maybe. That's what Peterborough activists propose, for their purposes. Perhaps you can even sort out all the worms that you get when opening the can called "dealing with CP". But what next? The old track connecting Bellville sub with Bala sub to the North has (long?) been converted into a cycling/walking trail. Houses (and rather expensive ones) along that trail are very close to it, the trail is literally in their backyard. Going further east where Belville sub first crosses DVP and then Bala sub? You're going to do what, make the trains jump from the bridge? ;-)
Jokes aside, I can't imagine how much political will is going to be needed to build there, either in that park or converting the trail back to mainline railroad. The opposition will be coming from all sides, left right and center.

Using the Don sub one day may sound like a nice idea but seriously I can't see it happening. Prove me wrong. Really, I mean it, I'd love to be proven wrong on this.
 
The connecting track would be constructed to the east of the DVP; trains would cross over the highway twice. It would pretty much follow this path: http://goo.gl/maps/nghi0

I have to agree though that in the meantime, I can't see it being built any time soon.
 
It occurred to me last night that this is the first of the weekends where we would typically see "special" GO Trains added to deal with an event.

Up until last year, the special trains were exclusive to the Lakeshore lines. Last year there was a bit of experimentation with service on other lines.

Not surprising that with the introduction of 30 minute off peak service that it was deemed that Lakeshore did not need special trains anymore....but I guess since they aren't needed on Lakeshore that killed off the practice totally? Shame really....particularly with this weekend which includes road closures as well as increased traffic/activity.
 
The connecting track would be constructed to the east of the DVP; trains would cross over the highway twice. It would pretty much follow this path: http://goo.gl/maps/nghi0

The problem with that is there is a huge grade change between the Belleville sub and the Bala sub below it at that location. A connection there would have to be built on a very long viaduct much like the UPE spur line being built at Person. So we're talking about 100 million dollars at a minimum here.


Not surprising that with the introduction of 30 minute off peak service that it was deemed that Lakeshore did not need special trains anymore....but I guess since they aren't needed on Lakeshore that killed off the practice totally? Shame really....particularly with this weekend which includes road closures as well as increased traffic/activity.

Well, there's not really anyone left to run any extra trains. :p
 

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