GO Transit: Construction Projects (Metrolinx, various)

[gweed123]

Last time I checked, the word "Hamilton" is included in the name of the main station in the area.

Hamilton GO Centre will be reduced in importance once the James North station opens, since AD2W Lakeshore trains will be re-routed there. The James North station will become the defacto main GO hub for Hamilton.

Since the new James North and the existing Hunter Street stations will both be termini (for the short term at least), I can see the need for very distinct names when they'll be on destination signs and spoken in announcements.

But many metro systems repeat station names - even Chicago's L has two stations called "Chicago," which in that case is potentially confusing. But "Hunter Street GO Centre" (a slight renaming for the current Hamilton station) and "Hamilton Harbour" could work.

Using "GO Centre" I think is a good idea. There's enough distinction between the two names, and with the James North station becoming "Hamilton Harbour", it fits the naming convention of only naming the main station in the area after the city.

 

[Platform 27]

Hamilton GO Centre will be reduced in importance once the James North station opens, since AD2W Lakeshore trains will be re-routed there. The James North station will become the defacto main GO hub for Hamilton.

You're mistaken. The RER plans have made clear that Hunter Street will continue to be the main GO hub for Hamilton in the future --- it will receive hourly AD2W trains and continue to have more rush hour service than West Harbour.

 

[gweed123]

You're mistaken. The RER plans have made clear that Hunter Street will continue to be the main GO hub for Hamilton in the future --- it will receive hourly AD2W trains and continue to have more rush hour service than West Harbour.

Hmmm, then why is GO spending so much money building a brand new station at James North? Seems strange to build a new station but still keep servicing the old one more frequently. Do you happen to have any documentation that details the traffic split between the two stations?

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

You're mistaken. The RER plans have made clear that Hunter Street will continue to be the main GO hub for Hamilton in the future --- it will receive hourly AD2W trains and continue to have more rush hour service than West Harbour.

Hmmm, then why is GO spending so much money building a brand new station at James North? Seems strange to build a new station but still keep servicing the old one more frequently. Do you happen to have any documentation that details the traffic split between the two stations?

I would also have to disagree. West Harbour is the first step to expanding rail service in Niagara, it is the logical choice to receive more service as new stations to the southeast are completed. Also, Metrolinx's RER page for Lakeshore West states West Harbour will get 30-minute service, vs. 60-minute service for Hunter Street.

 

[gweed123]

I would also have to disagree. West Harbour is the first step to expanding rail service in Niagara, it is the logical choice to receive more service as new stations to the southeast are completed. Also, Metrolinx's RER page for Lakeshore West states West Harbour will get 30-minute service, vs. 60-minute service for Hunter Street.

Interesting, thanks for the link. I honestly don't understand the rationale for the split though. Why have services split between the two stations when you could consolidate everything at 1 station?

 

[Platform 27]

Also, Metrolinx's RER page for Lakeshore West states West Harbour will get 30-minute service, vs. 60-minute service for Hunter Street.

No, you're misreading the text/graphic. It shows:

• during rush hour, Hunter St. has 15 minute frequencies in the peak direction and West Harbour has only 30 minute frequency in the peak direction (Advantage: Hunter).
• also during rush hour, Hunter St. has 60 minute frequencies counter-peak direction and West Harbour gets zilch (Advantage: Hunter)
• during off-peak times, Hunter St. has two-way service at 60 minute frequencies and West Harbour has zilch (Advantage: Hunter)

 

[mdrejhon]

There's extremely good reasons why both stations will be kept:

Pros of Hunter Street:
- Downtown core
- Metrolinx owns a rather big, nice looking art deco station
- Only 3 blocks away from Hamilton LRT B-Line
- Connected to intercity bus terminal
- Very near Hamilton's major municipal bus terminal
- Metrolinx owns sidings for parking of four GOtrains overnight there

Cons of Hunter Street
- Single track tunnel, extremely difficult and expensive to expand.
- Corridor owned by CP, which is harder to deal with than CN.
- Dead end, no feasible route to Niagara Falls
- Slower between Aldershot and Hunter Street station
- NO ROOM FOR PARKING

Pros of James Street North:
- Faster for trains to reach this station from Aldershot
- A stop on the way to Niagara Falls
- More room in corridor for building new tracks with less disruption (expropriation, freight shutdown, etc)
- Corridor owned by CN, who's letting Metrolinx build multiple parallel tracks
- ROOM FOR PARKING. 300 to start with, option of future parking garage expansion when necessary
- A few minutes walk from Hamilton's "pretty waterfront" (harbour, paths, cafes, restaurants)
- Only 15 minutes walk away from Hamilton downtown, on lovely James street
- Major nearby development potential, great improvements coming to area

Cons of James Street North
- Not near Hamilton LRT route (B-Line)
- Much more inconvenient for non-car-owning Hamiltonians
- A long 15 minute walk away from Hamilton downtown in miserable freezing cold and rain.

Hourly all-day service to Hunter is somewhat feasible with a bit of grudging tolerance from CP and some corridor improvement. But 15-minute service will not be possible at Hunter without complete physical separation from CP track -- i.e. some major megaproject (e.g. trenching and tripletracking the corridor, and doing a major cut-and-cover to create a triple track tunnel) that probably costs more than physically separated rail to James North.

As much as I think it's efficient to merge two stations into one, the pros versus cons are rather so dramatic, that both stations will permanently remain in service, serving different roles. One will be an AD2W station and the other will be peak period overflow. The current proposal is JamesNorth becomes peak period overflow and downtown Hunter becomes hourly AD2W. However, the roles of the stations are switchable based on CN/CP situation, allowing Metrolinx to play chicken with either for a sweetheart corridor sharing deal. When expanding GO RER to Hamilton, full rail to rail grade separation is necessary, and separate trackage is needed. Complete corridor physical separation is far simpler for James North than for Hunter, so it's wholly possible that the AD2W role will switch to JamesNorth once electricifation extends to Hamilton (2020s? 2030s?) by then, hopefully the A-line LRT is fully funded (Hamilton second LRT that connects Hamilton's airport to both Hunter Street GO and JamesNorth GO) making it feasible to switch the AD2W role to JamesNorth later.

Even with the big fight with CP, I think it is possible for AD2W hourly diesels to force its way to Hunter street, while electrification will more likely be achievable at the JamesNorth station. Hourly diesels can somewhat share the CP corridor, with some financially-agreed tolerance for delays. And there is room for passing track added to the trench (the treeslopes would have to be replaced by vertical trenchwalls abutting backyards, to squeeze a passing track or two before the tunnel pinchpoint). Double-tracking should be doable right up to the point of the tunnel pinchpoint, then you've got enough infrastructure for hourly service.

I, myself, have mixed feelings about which station should be the AD2W (All Day Two Way) terminus, but Hunter street would be a logical choice given the Hamilton B-Line corridor (BRT or LRT). During the era where A-line isn't even remotely funded, and the B-Line is uncertain, than Hunter is far better as the AD2W terminus. And it will probably be 20+ years before the A-line LRT gets built to JamesNorth, anyway.

 

[gweed123]

There's extremely good reasons why both stations will be kept:

Pros of Hunter Street:
- Downtown core
- Metrolinx owns a rather big, nice looking art deco station
- Only 3 blocks away from Hamilton LRT B-Line
- Connected to intercity bus terminal
- Very near Hamilton's major municipal bus terminal

Cons of Hunter Street
- Single track tunnel, extremely difficult and expensive to expand.
- Corridor owned by CP, which is harder to deal with than CN.
- Dead end, no route to Niagara Falls
- Slower between Aldershot and Hunter Street station
- NO ROOM FOR PARKING

Pros of James Street North:
- Faster for trains to reach this station from Aldershot
- Corridor owned by CN, who's letting Metrolinx build multiple parallel tracks
- A stop on the way to Niagara Falls
- Room for parking garage, with option of future huge parking garage expansion when necessary
- A few minutes walk from Hamilton's "pretty waterfront" (harbour, paths, cafes, restaurants)
- Only 15 minutes walk away from Hamilton downtown, on lovely James street
- Major nearby development potential, great improvements coming to area

Cons of James Street North
- Not near Hamilton LRT route (B-Line)
- More inconvenient for non-car-owning Hamiltonians
- A long 15 minute walk away from Hamilton downtown in miserable freezing cold and rain.

Thanks for the summary! I will admit that my knowledge of Hamilton isn't that great, hence my confusion. So basically once GO RER is implemented, the RER trains will be using Hunter, while the Niagara (probably non-electrified) trains will be using Harbour. (I realize that the graphic doesn't explicitly state Niagara, but I'm assuming that's the direction they're headed)

Are they going to have any issues with CP ramping up the service to Hunter to RER levels? I noticed they're only sending hourly to Hunter during off-peak.

 

[mdrejhon]

Thanks for the summary! I will admit that my knowledge of Hamilton isn't that great, hence my confusion. So basically once GO RER is implemented, the RER trains will be using Hunter, while the Niagara (probably non-electrified) trains will be using Harbour. (I realize that the graphic doesn't explicitly state Niagara, but I'm assuming that's the direction they're headed)

See post edits above --

For now, it'll only be diesels to both stations as the first 10-year electrification only goes to Burlington (or Aldershot, as it turns out). There's no electrification announced beyond that yet. I edited my post to mention electrification, when it reaches Hamilton, would be more likely to the JamesNorth station because it's easier to do a physical separation from freight.

Hourly with CP to downtown is possible in a decade with some difficulty (see above), but 15-mins will be incredibly expensive and difficult; possibly impossible. 15-min AD2W for JamesNorth is much easier, but it will be a long wait. The AD2W role could be switched between JamesNorth and Hunter depending on future circumstances, such as depending on if/when the future A-Line LRT gets built.

 

[CDL.TO]

Although CP is an issue, West Harbour also requires GO trains to "cross over" CN's freight tracks (as GO's tracks are on the "lake side" of the corridor at Aldershot and on the opposite side at West Harbour), which causes conflicts and limitations on capacity. It's kind of a similar issue as in Brampton.

 

[mdrejhon]

Aldershot gets electrified 15-min all day two way service, while Hamilton downtown gets hourly diesel all day service.

In the earlier RER announcement, electrification is announced only to Burlington, but in this diagram, it appears they've de-facto clarified this and is electrifying to Aldershot.

 

[robmausser]

Aldershot gets electrified 15-min all day two way service, while Hamilton downtown gets hourly diesel all day service.

View attachment 46003

In the earlier RER announcement, electrification is announced only to Burlington, but in this diagram, it appears they've de-facto clarified this and is electrifying to Aldershot.

Thats a really excellent graphic. Where did you pull that from?

 

[gweed123]

Thanks for the clarifications guys! Much of the pro for Hunter seems to be the proximity to the B-Line LRT. I wonder if it could be possible to include a spur track from the B-Line corridor to James North, via James St. This would in essence be building a small part of the A-Line along with the B-Line. This would allow them to run 2 services on the same track: One that goes straight along the B-Line corridor, and another that takes a jog down James to James North. This would negate the concerns about accessibility to the LRT, and may even be preferable, because you'd have a direct connection, as opposed to Hunter which is a couple blocks away.

From an operations perspective, James North seems like the better deal. The biggest drawback is the local connectivity. If that spur can be built, that would be a huge plus in favour of James North. I would imagine that the cost wouldn't be that substantial either, as it's only a few blocks of LRT.

 

[mdrejhon]

Although CP is an issue, West Harbour also requires GO trains to "cross over" CN's freight tracks (as GO's tracks are on the "lake side" of the corridor at Aldershot and on the opposite side at West Harbour), which causes conflicts and limitations on capacity. It's kind of a similar issue as in Brampton.

Let's say hypothetically, Phase 2 of GO RER includes a 15-min electrification extension to Hamilton. The elephant in the room for Hamilton Downtown (Hunter) is the single-track tunnel. That's going to require a second expensive megaproject, in addition to a rail-to-rail grade separation.

Based on this, it would be easier to electrify to West Harbor GO (JamesNorth) than to Hamilton GO downtown (Hunter).

 

[mdrejhon]

Thanks for the clarifications guys! Much of the pro for Hunter seems to be the proximity to the B-Line LRT. I wonder if it could be possible to include a spur track from the B-Line corridor to James North, via James St.

That's the A-Line LRT.

A few years ago, we had a 25-year concept of five LRT's, involving the B, L, A, S, T lines. The B-Line is the main line, and the one we want funded.

The A-Line is the "spur" you talk off. That is the James Street LRT that reaches both GO stations and the airport. Ironically, some of the city councillor resistance to getting our B-Line LRT getting built is currently the Mountain (Hamilton's "905" equivalent) is getting no LRT at first. (Hey -- give Hamilton a little credit where due -- we're, at least, more unamious on the LRT than Scarborough is, still a majority in favor).

Some people say Hamilton LRT is dead, but it is not really yet -- just kicked down the road further -- Within a few weeks, we may be hearing an announcement of a bus rapid transit expansion followed by a promise of LRT money that goes beyond the current elections (kicking the can further down the road), since Hurontario and other LRTs just got funding announcements. A expansion of the existing B-Line Express to frequent 24/7 service may be a consolation prize.

Back on topic, it's possible hourly AD2W goes to Hunter until the A-line gets built, then 15-min electrified AD2W goes to West Harbour. Hourly AD2W is feasible with freight sharing, but not 15-min. Rail-to-rail grade separation is needed for 1`5-min electrified service, but tunnel expansion would not be needed and would be much cheaper to West Harbour than downtown. It also buys Metrolinx time to get the B-line built, then the A-line built (in succeeding years). It won't be a spur, the mountain (905 equivalent) will be demanding their share, and the catchet of an airport train (and also the airport lands employment land talk/future office parks), politicking will ensure that if the A-Line gets built, it gets built both in the lower city and upper city, with the bonus of linking both GO stations to Hamilton's international airport.

Ironically, the mountain (like 905) needs to let the lower city (like 416) build the B-Line LRT, in order for the A-Line to be more likely to be built.