GO Transit: Construction Projects (Metrolinx, various)

[CDL.TO]

Just because Liberty Village is next to Exhibition GO station doesn't mean that Exhibition is a better station location than Union.

And I certainly know all about the changes on James St. Heck, I've got a t-shirt to show my Hamilton gentrification pride:

 

[mdrejhon]

Regardless, I think Hamilton Harbour won't have a chance of becoming the main intermodal rail hub unless and if the A-Line LRT is built. Then it has a chance. Exhibition is rather inconvenient to get to, moreso than West Harbour will be from James Street fast-forwarded 20 years. The ROW for A-Line is a bit challenging, but in twenty years one could close a small section of James St to car traffic from Wilson St. to Barton St, in theory -- making it an LRT/bike/pedestrian only section, with accented brick sidewalks. Imagine! Not feasible today, but in 20 years...

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

Once upon a time I had pitched an idea for a station at Bayview Junction. The triangle would be an ideal hub for all heavy rail trains between Niagara, Toronto or southwestern Ontario, as well as the L-Line of Hamilton's BLAST Network. If it were to ever happen though, it would be many years away, and on top of that, there is nothing around; it would be the new Aldershot. The track configuration is all that it's got going for it.

 

[muller877]

The idea of a Niagara Express train is pretty interesting. Personally, I would terminate such a line at Aldershot, so that it had broader connections to GO RER and Via. But obviously the James North station would play a key role for Hamilton.

There is always the issue about capacity around Hamilton. Has anyone thought about diverting before Aldershot for service to Niagara? I'm thinking of re-activating an older line that ran through Burlington...Burlington Beach.

Regular GO service would terminate at the Hunter station (with some short turning at Burlington). The new Liuna station would be mothballed.

Burlington GO would serve as the connection for the service to Niagara (and the terminus of this service). Other than a few parking lots it appears as if there has been no development on the Burlington Beach line. It would initially require a level crossing at Lakeshore (eventually an elevated crossing), a lift bridge by the Skyway and then an elevated crossing of the QEW.

This would cut 10 km off of the trip to Niagara (albeit with a lift bridge requirement) and lowers the train traffic through the problem areas around Aldershot (CN/CP issues) and limiting train traffic through the Hunter St tunnel in Hamilton. (I'm guessing it would be cheaper than modifying the lines in Hamilton)

Eventually Burlington could also be the terminus for a similar Brantford bound line.

 

[mdrejhon]

muller877, I think you may have the lines a bit confused. Metrolinx did not plan to run Niagara service through Hunter. Are you aware the JamesNorth station (near LIUNA) is directly on the fastest route to Niagara (already saves 10km) and is already on the route used for the seasonal service? And that Metrolinx has purchased storage at Lewis on this route, and land at Centennial Parkway for a future GO station stop there? Metrolinx seems pretty committed to this Niagara routing for future Niagara expansion. There is much more corridor room for extra track for physical separation from freight.

 

[muller877]

muller877, I think you may have the lines a bit confused. Metrolinx did not plan to run Niagara service through Hunter. Are you aware the JamesNorth station (near LIUNA) is directly on the fastest route to Niagara (already saves 10km) and is already on the route used for the seasonal service? And that Metrolinx has purchased storage at Lewis on this route, and land at Centennial Parkway for a future GO station stop there? Metrolinx seems pretty committed to this Niagara routing for future Niagara expansion. There is much more corridor room for extra track for physical separation from freight.

No confusion...at the CN/CP junction near Aldershot there needs to have significant spending before GO trains can pass through on a frequent basis. I understand that the RER system will only go to Aldershot and this is one of the many factors. So how do you either rebuild or avoid this junction? And to be clear, even shorter trains from Niagara would have to go through this junction causing issues with freight trains. There is a huge amount of freight traffic from east of Aldershot to just west of Burlington GO.

There is also discussion in this thread about how Hunter Go was a lot better than the Liuna/James North GO in terms of location. And how will the LRT service James North GO. And how to get from Hunter back to the CN Main Line.

So my answer was Burlington Beach tracks. Kill GO past Hunter station (and no GO to James North nor Centennial). Instead adopt and modify the proposed Burlington-Niagara separate service proposal.


The old Hamilton Radial Railway (and other services...I don't have all the history) had tracks along Burlington & Hamilton Beach. There is still a ROW starting at Burlington station.

It first starts as an existing track at Brant St & CN ROW and goes under Fairview St. Just south of there the track stops. There is a grass ROW almost all the way to Lakeshore/North Shore intersection (the parking lot of the Art Gallery may have to be removed). Here there can be a DOWNTOWN Burlington stop. It then follows the waterfront trail/Lakeshore to the channel. There needs to be a lift bridge built here (I'm guessing Eastport lift bridge used the piers of the old train bridge). After following Eastport/QEW it would connect with the CN main line through an old ROW just east of Centennial.

Where it joins the mainline at Centennial there can be another station very close to the proposed Centennial GO station. From there it is using the CN line all the way to Niagara.

This will avoid where freight and GO service have scheduling issues near Aldershot. It will have a Downtown Burlington station. It will cut 10 km out of the route to Niagara (compared to the James North alignment).

 

[ShonTron]

So my answer was Burlington Beach tracks. Kill GO past Hunter station (and no GO to James North nor Centennial). Instead adopt and modify the proposed Burlington-Niagara separate service proposal.

The old Hamilton Radial Railway (and other services...I don't have all the history) had tracks along Burlington & Hamilton Beach. There is still a ROW starting at Burlington station.

It first starts as an existing track at Brant St & CN ROW and goes under Fairview St. Just south of there the track stops. There is a grass ROW almost all the way to Lakeshore/North Shore intersection (the parking lot of the Art Gallery may have to be removed). Here there can be a DOWNTOWN Burlington stop. It then follows the waterfront trail/Lakeshore to the channel. There needs to be a lift bridge built here (I'm guessing Eastport lift bridge used the piers of the old train bridge). After following Eastport/QEW it would connect with the CN main line through an old ROW just east of Centennial.

Where it joins the mainline at Centennial there can be another station very close to the proposed Centennial GO station. From there it is using the CN line all the way to Niagara.

This will avoid where freight and GO service have scheduling issues near Aldershot. It will have a Downtown Burlington station. It will cut 10 km out of the route to Niagara (compared to the James North alignment).

This was the CN Beach Subdivision - a shortcut that was used more for high-value freight than regular passenger services, but built originally by the Hamilton and North Western in the late 1870s. The Beach Sub was abandoned around 1970s, and is now a trail from Downtown Burlington to about the Burlington Street exit from the QEW. The QEW/Centennial Parkway (Hwy 20) interchange used to be a roundabout with the railway cutting across it. Yes, the Hamilton Radial railway had a passenger service along here to Oakville, but it was abandoned in the early 1930s and would have followed Beach Blvd.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

This was the CN Beach Subdivision - a shortcut that was used more for high-value freight than regular passenger services, but built originally by the Hamilton and North Western in the late 1870s. The Beach Sub was abandoned around 1970s, and is now a trail from Downtown Burlington to about the Burlington Street exit from the QEW. The QEW/Centennial Parkway (Hwy 20) interchange used to be a roundabout with the railway cutting across it. Yes, the Hamilton Radial railway had a passenger service along here to Oakville, but it was abandoned in the early 1930s and would have followed Beach Blvd.

One issue I could forsee is the shipping channel. Either you keep it cheap and build low, and have a drawbridge that would give the right of way to ships, potentially creating a major delay, or you build high and see your costs soar through the roof. It's Welland Canal all over again.

 

[mdrejhon]

muller87, thanks for the clarification. I wasn't thinking of that route. It sounds highly improbable that line will be reactivated, but it sounds it would be a big timesaver for Niagara Express trains, if this right of way was ever reactivated for rail. Two drawbridges may be a bit of a timetable issue though (the existing Welland canal one and the new one for the shipping channel). Also, as I drive through there occasionally, there are people who enjoy the beach trails today, and it could be politically difficult and expensive to lay new rail -- the corridor has been disused for so long that it's almost a megaproject to reactivate the ROW.

Because of this, it would potentially be easier and cheaper to do a rail-to-rail grade separation for complete freight grade separation from RER -- even when compared to the cheap drawbridge option. So going via dedicated grade separated rail from Aldershot to Hamilton may end up being faster during the moments when the drawbridge is raised. And there's already an EA to add track anyway, which is planned anyway regardless to achieve more frequent service to Hamilton. So the main incremental is the rail-to-rail grade separation, and by that cost alone, you have probably saved more time than the 10km savings. Rail to rail grade separation would also make it possible to bring 15-minute RER all the way to Hamilton without danger of downstream disruption to Lakeshore East-West schedule, and goes to Aldershot at least twice as fast.

That said....Downtown Burlington GO RER service. Tempting.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

Because of this, it would potentially be easier and cheaper to do a rail-to-rail grade separation for complete freight grade separation from RER -- even when compared to the cheap drawbridge option. So going via dedicated grade separated rail from Aldershot to Hamilton may end up being faster during the moments when the drawbridge is raised. And there's already an EA to add track anyway, which is planned anyway regardless to achieve more frequent service to Hamilton. So the main incremental is the rail-to-rail grade separation, and by that cost alone, you have probably saved more time than the 10km savings. Rail to rail grade separation would also make it possible to bring 15-minute RER all the way to Hamilton without danger of downstream disruption to Lakeshore East-West schedule, and goes to Aldershot at least twice as fast.

I would agree that a grade separation would be a better option, and it would be optimal to do it at Bayview. That way you can perform a grade separation for all three subs (Oakville, Dundas, Grimsby).

 

[mdrejhon]

I would agree that a grade separation would be a better option, and it would be optimal to do it at Bayview. That way you can perform a grade separation for all three subs (Oakville, Dundas, Grimsby).

Physically optimal, yes.

Politically optimal, probably not -- delicately negotiating with both CN *and* CP?
Any grade separation at Bayview would probably enroach into the nearby CP overpass.

 

[drum118]

On my trip to Burlington on Thursday, still working on the Clarkson Parking structure and looks like the elevators are still not in service.

They where pouring concrete curb on the north side of the Burlington station, but little has change over the past few months. Roof still not on.

One of the 2 hydro transformers are in place. At this rate, fall opening date, not the spring date as noted.

They have started to rebuild the existing parking lot on the north side and will be done in phases for the 2 sides.

Not much work has taken place for rebuilding the Bronte south platform since my April visit. Work underway in building the last green area on the south side into a parking lot expansion. Anymore car space require here will require a parking structure to be built.

They have done a fair bit of tie replacement for track 1 at Port credit station as well upgrading it. End of the month will see hour service again on the weekend for crossing upgrades.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

To continue our back-and-forth about the importance of the current Hamilton GO Centre...

Hamilton LRT announcement coming tomorrow: shorter line, fast-tracked GO timeline

The province wants to fund a majority portion of the city's requested $811-million, 14-kilometre LRT line – but with the eastern end stopping near the Queenston traffic circle, rather than at Eastgate Square, according to local sources.

The plan is expected to include a spur line to at least one downtown-area GO station at the province's insistence.

A spur line, IMO, means trackage that will be for the A-Line in the future, but part of the B-line for now. Can we assume "downtown-area GO station" is the current GO Centre, not West Harbour? Seems like it, but the statement seems ambiguous.

 

[nfitz]

A spur line, IMO, means trackage that will be for the A-Line in the future, but part of the B-line for now. Can we assume "downtown-area GO station" is the current GO Centre, not West Harbour? Seems like it, but the statement seems ambiguous.

I'd assume that the spur would be to West Harbour. Hardly seems worth the trouble for Hamilton Centre, given how close it is to the existing alignment.

But I really fail to understand exactly what GO is thinking in Hamilton. Even this bizarre Pan-Am service to West Harbour makes little sense to me. The travel time to West Harbour from Aldershot is only 1 minute faster than to Hamilton Centre. But then the Pan-Am shuttle buses go from West Harbour to Tim Horton's field, making a stop on the way at Hamilton Centre. So why not simply bring the 4 extra trains a day to Hamilton Centre ...

 

[mdrejhon]

I think it's more likely a "Hurontario style loop" going to Hunter, as being the spur.
And it is NOT a PanAm specific train.

The reason why Hamilton has two GO spurs:

West Harbour GO and Confederation GO
++ Already on the route to Niagara Falls, so extendable to Grimsby and St. Catharines eventually.
++ The only ones with room for parking garage, when Aldershot overflows (it already is close to overflowing by 10am)
++ Owned by CN, usually easier to negotiate with than CP

Downtown GO
++ Metrolinx owns the nice art deco train station, and the four sidingsit's very central
++ It's really close to the proposed LRT B-Line, that a simple Hurontario-style loop can connect directly to it, by running south (by turning into municipal bus terminal, and turning
++ It's connected to the GO bus terminal.
++ NO parking, but VERY pedestrian friendly station.
-- No feasible route to Niagara Falls
-- Owned by CP

So you can see, there are/were extremely good infrastructural reasons that both stations exist.

Besides, it isn't odd: Consider Toronto has 7 GO spurs, so Hamilton having 2 is really nothing! The allday GO plans is apparently not till the 2020s according to the recent announcement, a full whoopingly whopping ten years from now (When Toronto eventually may have 9 spurs -- the UPX spur, the Eglinton spur). In ten years, Hamilton population will likely be much bigger, justifying the LRT even more. Stop dictating things for Hamilton, silly guy. Let actual Hamiltonian voters decide. If we collectively don't want an LRT, then so be it. But let us decide.

Especially since they are going and it isn't till the 2020s that Hamilton gets all day service, and eventually counter-direction commuters. There's cities in other countries where the train lines spurs out at both endpoints where the endpoints are cities.

It may be odd to view it this way, but if you view it this way -- Hamilton is getting a fair and proportionate number of GO spurs compared to other areas within the GTHA that has multiple GO routes and LRT connectors. Yes, it did catch me by surprise when they decided Downtown GO was probably the all-day terminus, but it makes a lot of sense if the A-line isn't built right away, and starts with B-Line first. It is also theoretically possible to switch all-day roles depending on the outcome of negotiations with CP versus CN, as well as when the A-Line gets built.

About the Hurontario style loop, it solves several convenience-related problems -- it drops people directly in front of Hamilton GO, and makes it possible to run an LRT through the MacNab municipal bus terminal too, as that's one possible pro of LRT loop, to take advantage of bus connectors, if there's room after a bus terminal rejigging.

It's very hard to negotiate rail time with both CN and CP, so the role of each station can vary depending on rail capacity we manage to win from either CN or CP, how much timetable interference Metrolinx is willing to accept (delays in Hamilton will cascade down the rest of Lakeshore West, e.g. Burlington residents waiting longer) and at least one Metrolinx document admitted that the "roles" of the stations may change over time. Metrolinx has been thus far completely unable to practically add more trains to Hamilton downtown GO, until potentially billion-dolloar-league corridor improvements, and it is possible that James North (West Harbour) ended up the cheapest and most fiscally wise option. Have you not possibly considered that???