Fate of the SRT

[unimaginative2]

The most recent purchase for Mark II Skytrain vehicles that I've found is Vancouver's 2006 contract for 34 vehicles at a cost of $116 million. That's $3.3 million apiece. The TTC's current contract for LRVs prices them at just under $6 million apiece.

I really find it amazing that during its recent budget crisis, the city's first proposed cuts were to youth programs and community centres and they didn't even look at eliminating the drivers on automated trains.

Depends on who you ask, TTC Management blames the Unions, and the Unions blame the on-board computers that drives the trains.

Does the on-board computer refuse to operate the train without company from the driver?

 

[ShonTron]

Does the on-board computer refuse to operate the train without company from the driver?

I'm sorry I can't do that Adam.

 

[CodeMonkey]

Does the on-board computer refuse to operate the train without company from the driver?

From what the union and other sources have stated the on-board computers would fail now and again, so they operated it semi-automatic with the driver just there in case of system failure.

Other than a few add-ons over the years like the alert tone when the door closing/opening, and the next station voice, most of the computer equipment is original from the now defunct UDTC.

People have to understand that the ICTS system on the SRT was the first of its kind. Anything brand new and never tested would have problems.

If(and that's a big IF) we are going down the road of another ICTS/ART system we have to stop comparing it to the SRT and start looking how other modern ART systems work.

 

[kettal]

The most recent purchase for Mark II Skytrain vehicles that I've found is Vancouver's 2006 contract for 34 vehicles at a cost of $116 million. That's $3.3 million apiece. The TTC's current contract for LRVs prices them at just under $6 million apiece.

Each new Skytrain has a capacity of 145 people, while the new TTC streetcars have a capacity of 260. My calculations have the TTC order at $5 billion each (considering the total is $1 billion). I don't know if spare parts, escalation, or forex provisions were in the Skytrain order.

 

[kEiThZ]

It was been said, the SRT will be MkIII.

Some of the land owners were not too happy with this plan. Even the ones living on Sheppard where the SRT will connect to the LRT.

The question was asked a number of times, "when will I have to move" with no real time frame given. I said between now and spring 2011 to move and make sure you get a good buck from TTC to help you move and setup.

A few business cannot not move over night to the point they will have to go out and get new equipment to set operation without down time lost.

The EA will be completed and approve with no indication if it will be LRT or Mk at that time.

I would put the the whole thing underground south of the 401.

It would be nice to have a station at Markham Rd so riders would not have to transfer twice to use the SRT.

I don't trust Metrolinx BCA, let alone TTC as to the what the final out should be for both lines.

Drum,

Good points all. Unfortunately, I didn't get to attend the consultation. I am worried that the fix is in too for the ART Mk II. We can already see the impact of that decision: stop spacing so wide that they skip out on the stop at Milner, one of the biggest employment nodes along the proposed extension. I agree with you on the need for a Markham road station, their other mistake aside from Milner. All this directly stems from their pre-disposition towards using something other than LRT.

I am puzzled though that businesses would want to move because of the SRT. Is this because of property acquisitions? Or because of the impact from the line coming in. If they are going to bury it near the houses, then the impact on the residents would be minimal. And it's elevated the rest of the way so again the impact for businesses should be minimal. Sheppard I can totally understand. My dad has a print shop on Sheppard and he's going to see how business is once construction starts. If it's bad he'll just close down. The city still has not responded to the BIA proposal to put in a temporary tax exemption for businesses along the route while construction is going on.

 

[kEiThZ]

If(and that's a big IF) we are going down the road of another ICTS/ART system we have to stop comparing it to the SRT and start looking how other modern ART systems work.

Even then it's still an idiotic decision. 10 k riders south of McCowan is not enough for a subway but 5k riders north of McCowan is enough for a medium capacity system that could support 10k riders? And then there's fleet commonality issues, limitations on inter-lining, etc. that all turn up by having one line use another system. LRT could easily handle the load on this line. Why are we putting in ART Mk IIs?

 

[CodeMonkey]

Each new Skytrain has a capacity of 145 people, while the new TTC streetcars have a capacity of 260. My calculations have the TTC order at $5 billion each (considering the total is $1 billion). I don't know if spare parts, escalation, or forex provisions were in the Skytrain order.

The "theory" behind ART was that the trains would have a head way about ~1-2 Minutes vs. ~2-3 Minutes on a LRT depending on environmental factors.

 

[unimaginative2]

Haha. ShonTron: five stars.

Each new Skytrain has a capacity of 145 people, while the new TTC streetcars have a capacity of 260. My calculations have the TTC order at $5 billion each (considering the total is $1 billion). I don't know if spare parts, escalation, or forex provisions were in the Skytrain order.

They're both overpriced for a high capacity route (though the ART less so if it's operated automated as designed). All the more reason to extend the damned subway.

From what the union and other sources have stated the on-board computers would fail now and again, so they operated it semi-automatic with the driver just there in case of system failure.

Other than a few add-ons over the years like the alert tone when the door closing/opening, and the next station voice, most of the computer equipment is original from the now defunct UDTC.

People have to understand that the ICTS system on the SRT was the first of its kind. Anything brand new and never tested would have problems.

Now that it's been tested over a quarter century, operating fully-automated in a half dozen different cities, I think it's safe to say that it can operate without a driver.

 

[kEiThZ]

^ That'll be the sole redeeming feature of this whole ordeal; that they rid themselves of unncessary operators if they purchase the ART Mk II instead of the Transit City LRT for this line.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

There won't ever be 5000 riders an hour east of McCowan, even if it's extended to Algonquin Park. 3000 riders an hour would be a huge surprise and would require things like massive redevelopment of Malvern's detached houses, new office towers at Milner, and a doubling or tripling of Centennial's enrollment, none of which may ever happen. 5000 would mean no one from Malvern would be taking the Sheppard line, or the Morningside line, or the Midtown GO line, or the Finch bus, or anything else...or their car, for that matter, since it'd also mean transit's modal share would have to increase enough that it became the highest transit-using area in the city (not going to happen).

I doubt current bus ridership going NE from STC is more than 700-800 per hour, and that's spread amongst multiple routes, including some that run along McCowan and Ellesmere for stretches where riders won't even take the extension. The main route that the extension will replace is the Progress bus, which currently sees 8100 riders...a day. Ridership cannibalized from other routes - not that their ridership is any higher - is unknown and will stay unknown until it opens and we know if buses are rerouted or make easy connections (and if riders don't take all the other nearby routes instead).

 

[EnviroTO]

I don't have a problem with the way they are planning to extend the line as fully grade separated. I see little benefit in using ART vehicles though. Using ART would complicate station design at Kennedy because a shared loop structure would be impossible... ART would need to remain at a different grade than everything else. With a subway, Eglinton LRT, Scarborough LRT, SRT replacement, GO Trains, and buses at Kennedy designing the station layout is going to be made that much more complicated by SRT not being able to cross any of the other systems at the same grade. Secondly, there is cost savings and greater flexibility for integrated services when SRT is converted to use the same equipment and tracks as LRT. They can share common yards, common maintenance facilities, and extend routes onto other corridors with LRT.

The only place in Toronto where ART makes sense is to replace the Doppelmayr thing at the airport to run Kennedy-Renforth-T1-T3-Airport Parking-GO Georgetown Line. In all other places an elevated system is too unsightly.

 

[Voltz]

The most recent purchase for Mark II Skytrain vehicles that I've found is Vancouver's 2006 contract for 34 vehicles at a cost of $116 million. That's $3.3 million apiece. The TTC's current contract for LRVs prices them at just under $6 million apiece.

The new streetcars the TTC is ordering are required to be highly modified and customized in order to operate on the TTC old track network, therefore the price is a lot higher than a standard off the shelf LRV, which is what the TTC would be ordering for the new lines. I would expect the price to be more or less the same as a shorter (18m vs 30m) ART car.


But regarding the TTC ridership projections for the SRT, I wonder if they noticed that it is higher than the Metrolinx regional transportation plan numbers for this line? Did they forget to include GO transit agian?

 

[nfitz]

The new streetcars the TTC is ordering are required to be highly modified and customized in order to operate on the TTC old track network, therefore the price is a lot higher than a standard off the shelf LRV ...

Where do you get this stuff? We've had extensive discussions about this in the past, and the conclusion has been that the impact on pricing is marginal at best; perhaps a bit more power; but not that different than done elsewhere, and with such a large order, the minor differences in equipment are dwarfed by having to set up an assembly line in Canada.

 

[EnviroTO]

The new streetcars the TTC is ordering are required to be highly modified and customized in order to operate on the TTC old track network, therefore the price is a lot higher than a standard off the shelf LRV

This has already been shown not to be true. The cost the TTC is spending is similar to what other jusirdictions are paying for low-floor LRV. ART isn't expensive due to the vehicle, it is expensive due to the guideway and guidance system. ART cars don't have normal motors and are therefore extremely lightweight and since they don't operate with other vehicles they aren't as crashworthy. This makes ART vehicles cheaper to make. However they don't have vehicles with the capacity the new TTC low-floor LRVs will have and cannot operate at grade.

 

[Voltz]

Where do you get this stuff? We've had extensive discussions about this in the past, and the conclusion has been that the impact on pricing is marginal at best; perhaps a bit more power; but not that different than done elsewhere, and with such a large order, the minor differences in equipment are dwarfed by having to set up an assembly line in Canada.

I may be mistaking as to the price difference of course, but that is just what I have heard around.