Exodus to the Burbs

[Thanos]

If midtown and downtown were to build more 3 bedroom condos and more townhomes (as they are doing with the waterfront development, along with parks, skating rinks, etc) maybe more families would stay downtown or midtown.

That is what i find to be the biggest issue with the new developments. Seriously 650-700 sq.ft. is not a livable 2 bedroom condo and 800 sq.ft does not make a 3 bedroom condo.

 

[GenerationW]

IMO, moving from the city to the burbs is like breaking into jail.

Yes, that's exactly what it's like.

I'm not sure why anyone would want to subject their children to suburbia.

Fitzy prejudiced against suburbanites? The horror!

Ideally we would all want a spacious home that is within walking distance to all amenities, shops, entertainment, work, etc. But that costs $$$. It's a trade off: which do you prefer — to be close to everything you need but live in a condo or really expensive house, or live in the 'burbs in a bigger, cheaper house but have to drive and TTC it everywhere you go?

I prefer that people have choices.

 

[EMP1729]

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jul/25/opinion/la-oe-rodriguez-whitecities-20110725

This article in the LA times is interesting - the opposite seems to be happening in the US. Suburbanites are flocking to the big city.

Some of you may not like the implications outlined in the article, though. If no one wants to read the article: suburbanites are bringing their suburban values with them, and developers are catering to those values....

 

[Nads Gone Bads]

I've never understood this, there are plenty of parks downtown, and large ones at that - more then there are in suburbs - and what exactly is 'open space' ?

The are more and larger parks downtown then there are in the suburbs? You should take a look at Google Maps. Most of the city is suburban. By suburbs, I'm still referring to the 416, North York, Scarbrah, Etobicoke, East York, not Vaughan, Richmond Hill, etc.

 

[Nads Gone Bads]

Why would they do that? In the city we walk with the kids to parks, swimming, schools, recreation centres, libraries. We are frequently at the ROM and Science Centre. I'm not sure why anyone would want to subject their children to suburbia.

What exactly is wrong with living in the burbs? You make it sound like it would be torture to live there. People obviously enjoy living outside the core, otherwise they'd move. Some people actually prefer a quiet neighbourhood, far removed from the energy of the city. What's wrong with that?

 

[DTowner]

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jul/25/opinion/la-oe-rodriguez-whitecities-20110725

This article in the LA times is interesting - the opposite seems to be happening in the US. Suburbanites are flocking to the big city.

Some of you may not like the implications outlined in the article, though. If no one wants to read the article: suburbanites are bringing their suburban values with them, and developers are catering to those values....

That's what I fear if they make downtown more 'family-friendly'. Downtown Toronto is already zoned to death and I hate it when people move downtown and then complain about the noise and traffic and seek to zone everything out.

 

[nfitz]

What exactly is wrong with living in the burbs?

Using your definition of suburbs, that's fine. It's these exurbs I'm talking about.

It just all seems so Stepford Wives.

 

[spider]

I don't understand the desire to live in surburbia in the deep GTA, miles from anything interesting.

---ever see a thread here started by those who opt to live in an area other than "downtown" excoriating those that do choose "downtown", no, I don't think so. Wonder why? It's because they respect the choice others have made and their reasons for making that choice. They don't seek validation or praise for their choice because they, rightfully so, don't care what others think because it is none of their business.

May "downtowners" continue to enjoy the pleasures of density and walkability to the end of their days but please abandon the pulpit, you are preaching to the saved.

 

[Nads Gone Bads]

Using your definition of suburbs, that's fine. It's these exurbs I'm talking about.

It just all seems so Stepford Wives.

I agree, the outer burbs (905) are cookie cutter wastelands. The neighbourhoods are developed with no thought. But at the same time, some people love living out there so who is anyone to tell them that they're crazy for living where they choose? Whatever works for them is best for them. They might think living downtown, close to hookers and drug dealers is crazy. I'm not saying downtown is a bad place to live, it's just not for everybody.

 

[Nads Gone Bads]

---ever see a thread here started by those who opt to live in an area other than "downtown" excoriating those that do choose "downtown", no, I don't think so. Wonder why? It's because they respect the choice others have made and their reasons for making that choice. They don't seek validation or praise for their choice because they, rightfully so, don't care what others think because it is none of their business.

May "downtowners" continue to enjoy the pleasures of density and walkability to the end of their days but please abandon the pulpit, you are preaching to the saved.

Well said. It's that pretentious attitude that makes people across Canada hate Torontonians. The 'sophisticated' downtowners bring this hatred on themselves. Being culturally active or a frequent visitor of art galleries, theatre events doesn't make you any more important or interesting than someone who gets their rocks off by hiking, playing sports or racing cars. Unfortunately many from abroad probably think we're all snobs. If they didn't tell people how to live the 'right way', they wouldn't be detested.

 

[nfitz]

But at the same time, some people love living out there so who is anyone to tell them that they're crazy for living where they choose?

Because it's not economically sustainable. At least in the outer exurbs ... I'm thinking Brooklin here. Now we're supposed to build them a new expressway ... increase hospitals, etc., etc.

At the same time, those further out of the city, think they deserve a say on the way the city is run. On the taxation side, the province takes huges amount of money from inside Toronto, and spends it outside Toronto. The mill rate for education property tax is the same in Toronto as it is in Kenora!

 

[jje1000]

I agree, the outer burbs (905) are cookie cutter wastelands. The neighbourhoods are developed with no thought. But at the same time, some people love living out there so who is anyone to tell them that they're crazy for living where they choose? Whatever works for them is best for them. They might think living downtown, close to hookers and drug dealers is crazy. I'm not saying downtown is a bad place to live, it's just not for everybody.

Hookers and drug dealers? I live in the suburbs and there are plenty of those here too.

Well said. It's that pretentious attitude that makes people across Canada hate Torontonians. The 'sophisticated' downtowners bring this hatred on themselves. Being culturally active or a frequent visitor of art galleries, theatre events doesn't make you any more important or interesting than someone who gets their rocks off by hiking, playing sports or racing cars. Unfortunately many from abroad probably think we're all snobs. If they didn't tell people how to live the 'right way', they wouldn't be detested.

You're being too specific. While you think that it's a Canadian-Toronto thing (which is getting pretty tired anyways), this is a fundamental city-country divide. The rest of Quebec has a rivalry with Montreal. New York City with upstate NY. British Columbia vs Vancouver. Los Angeles vs NorCal. And the thought that city dwellers only do certain things while those living near the country only their own things is incredibly naive. Perhaps you're just willfully ignoring the dozens of theatres and galleries in the suburbs and the many auto enthusiasts and kilometers of trails in downtown Toronto.

 

[Nads Gone Bads]

Hookers and drug dealers? I live in the suburbs and there are plenty of those here too.



You're being too specific. While you think that it's a Canadian-Toronto thing (which is getting pretty tired anyways), this is a fundamental city-country divide. The rest of Quebec has a rivalry with Montreal. New York City with upstate NY. British Columbia vs Vancouver. Los Angeles vs NorCal. And the thought that city dwellers only do certain things while those living near the country only their own things is incredibly naive. Perhaps you're just willfully ignoring the dozens of theatres and galleries in the suburbs and the many auto enthusiasts and kilometers of trails in downtown Toronto.

I realize this goes on in all major cities. And I wasn't lumping all downtowners into the same boat. I highlighted the word 'sophisticated.' The enlightened art snobs, namely.

 

[jje1000]

I realize this goes on in all major cities. And I wasn't lumping all downtowners into the same boat. I highlighted the word 'sophisticated.' The enlightened art snobs, namely.

You know that snobs appear in all categories, right? There are vehicle enthusiasts who lecture others on auto tuning and maintenance, backpackers who look down at other travelers, urbanites who argue over what built form is better, foodies who insist that that pizza should always be cooked in wood ovens, fishers who only fish in a certain spot- you get my point. Sorry to be picky, but enlightenment is subjective.

Anyways, we should get back on topic.

 

[Nads Gone Bads]

You know that snobs appear in all categories, right? There are vehicle enthusiasts who lecture others on auto tuning and maintenance, backpackers who look down at other travelers, urbanites who argue over what built form is better, foodies who insist that that pizza should always be cooked in wood ovens, fishers who only fish in a certain spot- you get my point. Sorry to be picky, but enlightenment is subjective.

Anyways, we should get back on topic.

Yes, that is true. I'm sure the rest of Canada doesn't hate Toronto for the examples you listed above, however. When they think of Toronto, they're not picturing the burbs. It's the group of smug urbanites they despise. Guys like Adma and Doug. The types who love to dish out insults and belittle others, but cry when countered by them.