Exodus to the Burbs

[Admiral Beez]

Since I work in Markham my wife and I often talk of renting out our Cabbagetown semi and buying a place in Whitchurch-Stouffville or thereabouts. I have no interest in suburban housing - lived that life in Meadowvale, Mississauga in the 1970s - but could definitely live in a nice house on an acre or so.

 

[Nads Gone Bads]

Since I work in Markham my wife and I often talk of renting out our Cabbagetown semi and buying a place in Whitchurch-Stouffville or thereabouts. I have no interest in suburban housing - lived that life in Meadowvale, Mississauga in the 1970s - but could definitely live in a nice house on an acre or so.

Wouldn't suburban housing be better for you? You can still be close to the city but have a large property.

 

[Nads Gone Bads]

Actually not--and as per my earlier point, neither do a lot of those more thoughtful "urban snobs" among us. In fact (and as per my point), they may "love" (or offer clues to loving) the suburbs even more than said suburbanites are capable of, or inclined to doing. So it's not about the raw suburbs; it's about the ham-handed, lousy-lay obtuse complacency of the suburbanites. They're *their* own worst enemies--not the people who created and inhabited Don Mills in the 50s and 60s, but the people who pollute it with teardowns in the 00s and 10s.

You might as well say that I "hate the city" whenever I invoke this

I understand your frustration with the frequent tear downs of original homes in place of the bland, vomit inducing McMansions. They have no character whatsoever. However, homeowners have every right to tear down their homes and rebuild. It's perfectly legal. Maybe you should work towards getting a heritage designation put in place for the original homes of the area. How often do you visit Don Mills though? I can't see you getting out there very often, perhaps I'm wrong, but if you rarely step foot in that area of the city, why do you really care what happens with the old homes? If you don't live or spend a lot of time there, why is it bothersome to you? You don't have to experience this phenomenon with your own eyes on a regular basis. Did you grow up there? Maybe you'd like to even live there now but the presence of the McMansions would drive you up the wall?

 

[adma]

I understand your frustration with the frequent tear downs of original homes in place of the bland, vomit inducing McMansions. They have no character whatsoever. However, homeowners have every right to tear down their homes and rebuild. It's perfectly legal. Maybe you should work towards getting a heritage designation put in place for the original homes of the area. How often do you visit Don Mills though? I can't see you getting out there very often, perhaps I'm wrong, but if you rarely step foot in that area of the city, why do you really care what happens with the old homes? If you don't live or spend a lot of time there, why is it bothersome to you? You don't have to experience this phenomenon with your own eyes on a regular basis. Did you grow up there? Maybe you'd like to even live there now but the presence of the McMansions would drive you up the wall?

Philosophically speaking, look at it this way. I've encountered a lot of lefty urbanists who're eager to start some break-up-Megacity separatist movement along the lines of "Etobicoke can have Ford; we're outa here". To them, I respond, thoughtfully: "uh-uh. You're missing the point. If you were truly the thoughtful urbanists you pretend to be, you'd realize that even Etobicoke doesn't deserve a Mayor Ford."

Re "why is it bothersome to you?"--reread what I wrote.

In fact (and as per my point), they may "love" (or offer clues to loving) the suburbs even more than said suburbanites are capable of, or inclined to doing. So it's not about the raw suburbs; it's about the ham-handed, lousy-lay obtuse complacency of the suburbanites. They're *their* own worst enemies

So, it's bothersome--because we care. And who freaking cares how often we visit. By that calibre, the urban-minded should only narcissistically concern themselves with their own turf. And if something happens in some far-off community, we shouldn't bother, we should let "them" take care of it: if we only visit once in a blue moon or not at all, it's not our responsibility.

Uh, yeah, sure. Actually, by my estimation, if "we don't care", that speaks to a broader ailment--like even if we *visited* some such place, we'd be so entropically disinterested in anything regarding urban form or lay-of-the-land. Which is another way of saying that if the two of us travelled someplace--I dunno, road-tripped to Hamilton and back, or something--if it were me at the wheel, it's you who'd probably be "are we there yet" or "let's get out of this crap place" bored out of your skull, even in the kinds of suburban/nondescript zones which, supposedly, so-labeled "urban leftys" like me are less endeared toward. Well, if you're going to be like that, well...shove it.

 

[Nads Gone Bads]

Philosophically speaking, look at it this way. I've encountered a lot of lefty urbanists who're eager to start some break-up-Megacity separatist movement along the lines of "Etobicoke can have Ford; we're outa here". To them, I respond, thoughtfully: "uh-uh. You're missing the point. If you were truly the thoughtful urbanists you pretend to be, you'd realize that even Etobicoke doesn't deserve a Mayor Ford."

Re "why is it bothersome to you?"--reread what I wrote.

In fact (and as per my point), they may "love" (or offer clues to loving) the suburbs even more than said suburbanites are capable of, or inclined to doing. So it's not about the raw suburbs; it's about the ham-handed, lousy-lay obtuse complacency of the suburbanites. They're *their* own worst enemies

So, it's bothersome--because we care. And who freaking cares how often we visit. By that calibre, the urban-minded should only narcissistically concern themselves with their own turf. And if something happens in some far-off community, we shouldn't bother, we should let "them" take care of it: if we only visit once in a blue moon or not at all, it's not our responsibility.

Uh, yeah, sure. Actually, by my estimation, if "we don't care", that speaks to a broader ailment--like even if we *visited* some such place, we'd be so entropically disinterested in anything regarding urban form or lay-of-the-land. Which is another way of saying that if the two of us travelled someplace--I dunno, road-tripped to Hamilton and back, or something--if it were me at the wheel, it's you who'd probably be "are we there yet" or "let's get out of this crap place" bored out of your skull, even in the kinds of suburban/nondescript zones which, supposedly, so-labeled "urban leftys" like me are less endeared toward. Well, if you're going to be like that, well...shove it.

There is more to life than architecture and urban planning. You need to accept the fact that Toronto is never going to meet your expectations. It will forever fall short in one way or another. The sooner you can accept that, the easier it will be for you to be more cheerful. If you just dwell on the things you dislike, then you're always going to be cynical. That's not to say you shouldn't expect greater things from your city and it's people. Why don't you run in your ward in the next election? Have you ever done anything to improve a certain aspect of the city?

I'd love to go to Hamilton actually. I was there for the Slammer in the Hammer in June. You were probably there. I want to go back and visit each of the 100 odd waterfalls. You've pinned me wrong. I love road trips and exploring different places. I don't get bored by seeing something new. We should drive out to the Grand Canyon sometime. I'll bring my Milli Vanilli bootlegs and even let you use my tooth brush after I'm done scraping the dingles from my buttock shingles.

"ven in the kinds of suburban/nondescript zones which, supposedly, so-labeled "urban leftys" like me are less endeared toward." You're an exception. You hate the people in the suburbs, not the neighbourhoods. Many here and elsewhere hate both the people and the general layout. I guess those are the fraudulent urbanists. So where did you grow up?

You make a lot of good points but they're often veiled by the manner in which you demonstrate them. You shouldn't expect people to respect your opinions when you give them smarmy remarks. That instantly makes people disregard anything valid in your statements. If you had more tact you'd leave a greater impression with people and they'd be more receptive to your point of view. You can't just bluntly rip people's opinions apart, then proceed to tell them why your way is better. That doesn't work. You have more pride than Gene Simmons. It's not healthy and won't lead you to serenity. The only reason I go after you is so that you can feel how others do when you're condescending to them. I can see you don't like being questioned and insulted, understandably so. Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you. If you don't want to live by that philosophy, then be prepared for others to throw the browns back at you.

 

[Electrify]

The author of the article says the anonymity of the big city made him feel like he could be an ass and get away with it. I think this says more about him personally than it does about the big city. When driving you are very anonymous, and one could argue that one's driving style says a lot about their personality. This guy probably rapidly merges, tailgates, speeds, and generally drives like an ass because he feels he is anonymous. If the only thing which keeps you acting civilized is being anonymous, then you probably have some serious mental health issues and should see a doctor about them.

Also, as I'm sure has been already pointed out, the people documented are not moving to the suburbs per se, but to small towns which have localized central business districts and are fairly walkable. These communities are what Jacobs endorsed, but closer together to create an urban mass. One does not have to go to the country to find these kinds of communities, as they can be found across Toronto and the GTA. South Etobicoke, Islington, Weston, The Junction, Summerhill, The Beach(es) are some prime examples in Toronto itself. Most 905 suburbs also have similar communities which make up their local downtowns.

 

[adma]

One does not have to go to the country to find these kinds of communities, as they can be found across Toronto and the GTA. South Etobicoke, Islington, Weston, The Junction, Summerhill, The Beach(es) are some prime examples in Toronto itself. Most 905 suburbs also have similar communities which make up their local downtowns.

But I think the point of the article is: you get more bang for the buck out there.

Oh, and re Nads Gone Bads: you don't earn "respect" through pubescent talk like "after I'm done scraping the dingles from my buttock shingles".

 

[W. K. Lis]

The author of the article says the anonymity of the big city made him feel like he could be an ass and get away with it. I think this says more about him personally than it does about the big city. When driving you are very anonymous, and one could argue that one's driving style says a lot about their personality. This guy probably rapidly merges, tailgates, speeds, and generally drives like an ass because he feels he is anonymous. If the only thing which keeps you acting civilized is being anonymous, then you probably have some serious mental health issues and should see a doctor about them.

Also, as I'm sure has been already pointed out, the people documented are not moving to the suburbs per se, but to small towns which have localized central business districts and are fairly walkable. These communities are what Jacobs endorsed, but closer together to create an urban mass. One does not have to go to the country to find these kinds of communities, as they can be found across Toronto and the GTA. South Etobicoke, Islington, Weston, The Junction, Summerhill, The Beach(es) are some prime examples in Toronto itself. Most 905 suburbs also have similar communities which make up their local downtowns.

Cooksville could have been in the group, but Mississauga widened Dundas Street and turned most of streetfront stores into strip malls with parking lots along the street. There is still a few storefronts on Dundas Street, but few which look odd and out of place.

 

[jeff316]

I actually did the math of what it would cost to move to the burbs or buy a 2 bedroom condo in the city when i first moved here. Guess what, the 2-bedroom condo in the city saves me about 150$/month. Now, a 2 bedroom condo in the burbs would be cheaper but why would i move to the burbs and still live in a condo? Then there's also the fact that i would be saving 1-2 hours a day from commuting.

I grew up in the burbs and loved it. I work here in Toronto. But, ^ ^ ^ ^ This this this.

Naturally, when my wife and I went to leave our TO apartment to buy a house we started looking in the suburbs and were shocked at the prices. Not the sticker prices, but all of the associated costs - higher property taxes, 2 GO passes = transit costs going through the roof, our transportation costs skyrocketing due to increased car use, eventual extra pre- and post-school care (once we get to that stage.) In Toronto, our transit+car budget rarely goes above 450$ per month, and that's with driving to visit all of our family in southern and eastern Ontario monthly.

A woman at my work just moved to Burlington four months ago and she can't believe how much her extra driving she does in addition to her new GO train habit. It truly never occurred to her.

We got strange looks from the rest of my family about the extra cost of our urban house until we pointed out that our potential GO transit costs alone (for us) was equal to 100 000$ over 25 years.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Wouldn't suburban housing be better for you? You can still be close to the city but have a large property.

As I said above, I have no interest in suburban housing. W

 

[Electrify]

Cooksville could have been in the group, but Mississauga widened Dundas Street and turned most of streetfront stores into strip malls with parking lots along the street. There is still a few storefronts on Dundas Street, but few which look odd and out of place.

I was actually going to list a whole bunch of said villages in the GTA, but stopped short. Unfortunately, these communities used to be littered across the GTA, but were essentially bulldozed over to make room for parking lots and plazas. Sadly, the outer parts of Toronto proper probably saw the worst of it. In Scarborough, I don't think a single old village survived the onslaught of sprawl. by the time sprawl was reaching the 905, people were a little more conscious about the historic value of their communities so many (but from all...) were maintained in a sea of mcmansions. Cooksville was lost, but Streetsville and Port Credit are still going strong.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

You also don't need to go to Peterborough for greenspace, either. My usual cycle/rollerblade is the Leslie Spit or the Beaches boardwalk, but we were visiting friend in Pickering and took the bikes. The ride from Petticoat Creek (bottom of Whites Road) to the Frenchman's Bay marina and back was great! The conservation area was gorgeous (a bunch of groups having picnics -- hopefully they got shelter when the storm hit!) and even the 'suburban' streets were green, leafy, nice bike paths.

I think the main lesson is you find nice places to live whereever you want to live, urban/suburban/ex-urban/whatever.

 

[jje1000]

I was actually going to list a whole bunch of said villages in the GTA, but stopped short. Unfortunately, these communities used to be littered across the GTA, but were essentially bulldozed over to make room for parking lots and plazas. Sadly, the outer parts of Toronto proper probably saw the worst of it. In Scarborough, I don't think a single old village survived the onslaught of sprawl.

Agincourt managed to survive to some degree in Scarborough.

 

[Electrify]

Agincourt managed to survive to some degree in Scarborough.

Which part? I look along Sheppard Ave. around this stretch, and with the exception of a few old homes, it is pretty much strip plaza city. It doesn't have anything close to the character of Unionville, downtown Brampton, or even Cooksville.

 

[TrickyRicky]

I think many of you are falling into the trap of suburbs versus city being set by the article. Electrify has it right when he points out that this article is about the author not about life-style choices or the merit of living in the city or the countryside.

I grew up in the exurbs so I am intimately familiar with these areas. They can be great but I can tell you that I, my family, and almost all my peers do not live there anymore even though we enjoyed the experience. Actions speak louder than words and speak truth with greater accuracy than statistics. It took my parents 6 months to sell their house. A similar priced house in downtown toronto sells in 2 days.

The trend the author suggest is a false impression. People of the authors age class have always moved to the suburbs. Also, this article is particularly anglo-caucasian in perspective. People moving to the suburbs from other cultural background (the demographic that is primarly driving suburban growth) have a completely different take on the situation. It is worth noting that a particular peculiarity of anglo-caucasian culture is that status is often driven by a kind of contrarian elitism. It is the same reason that anglo-caucasion people are so in to indie music. The author is writing an article that contradicts the trend in an attempt to gain status over others. The real trend is that the downtown is booming and becoming more white, therefore to be white and leave the city is an act of defiance designed to increase status.