Exodus to the Burbs

[TrickyRicky]

That article made me laugh really because it is so navel gazing. People with children have and always will move to the suburbs! To me the article almost comes off as arogant. It's like the author is trying to rationalize his decision and suggesting it's a trend because he is at that point in his lifecycle. It's OK, moving to the suburbs is normal it doesn't make you a bad person. If you look at real estate price movements the exact opposite "trend" is occuring. Real estate price appreciation for family residences in exurban areas has lagged the region as a whole, and prices climbed the most in the most central areas. The remarkable thing is not that 35-45 year olds are moving to the suburbs. The remarkable thing is that now some 35-45 year olds are not! If you capped prices in the Annex at $300,000 there would probably be a waiting list of 10,000 families wanting to move there per house.

My suggestion however is that if you follow along on the lifecycle line once the kids move out the "space" and "quite" of the lifestyle breaks two ways. For some people that is where they want to spend their life in peace, a personal paradise. For others the space and silence becomes a prison.

 

[to_l]

It was a really long article, and it was so negative towards downtown. When I started reading it though, I really was expecting an article about something like an exodus to Scarborough, Richmond Hill, etc. not a completely other township, which to me, is not a surburb of Toronto. At the end, he did amend it and say that his needs were different now than when he chose to live downtown so I guess that's something.

 

[nfitz]

People with children have and always will move to the suburbs!

Why would they do that? In the city we walk with the kids to parks, swimming, schools, recreation centres, libraries. We are frequently at the ROM and Science Centre. I'm not sure why anyone would want to subject their children to suburbia.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

Why would they do that? In the city we walk with the kids to parks, swimming, schools, recreation centres, libraries. We are frequently at the ROM and Science Centre. I'm not sure why anyone would want to subject their children to suburbia.

Agreed -- our annual pass to the ROM was great value -- my girls loved their trips to the museum. However, I think it's ridiculous for someone who lived in the Beach (or Riverdale, for that matter) to speak of themselves as having 'lived downtown.' Raising kids on the Upper East Side in NYC, or Liberty Village/City Place here, is urban. We're inner suburbanites -- what was that term? -- 'street car suburbs'.

 

[Jonny5]

The article was stupid. But that's normal for Toronto Life writing at a subject level beyond "Where to Eat Now!

Why would they do that? In the city we walk with the kids to parks, swimming, schools, recreation centres, libraries. We are frequently at the ROM and Science Centre. I'm not sure why anyone would want to subject their children to suburbia.

Because it's cheaper and hundreds of millions of children are subjected to it every day and turn out fine. There really isn't anything more to say than that. Until it's no longer cheaper it will happen.

EDIT: And there are parks, pools, schools and rec centres in suburbia, many in walking distance of thousands of residents. the outer suburbs are too old to have the exurban uber sprawl that you are talking about. Now go to the new suburbs of the 905 cities, and you can find that (Caledon, Brooklin, East Gwillimbury, Grimsby etc...), but that is where only 1% of suburban residents are.

EDIT 2: I'm not advocating "it's cheaper so it's better" logic, just pointing out quantity is a powerful force over quality.

 

[lead82]

I bought the magazine purely for the interest to read the article. I want my money back. The article is very shallow and does not delve deep into the actualnissue he is trying to raise. Yes, people with kids are leaving the city. The evidence provided though are of wealthy upper class white folks who Moved to small towns but still commute to the city. The problem that should have been discussed is why do families with small children want to move to the suburbs? From my own experience is that families want a house for the space it provides and for the investment growth. This is a North American phenomenon that is culturally forced and accepted as the norm. Certainly houses are cheaper and more affordable in the burbs and small towns. For most people the sacrifice is an awful commute and lost time with the family. The system makes it hard economically to stay in the city. Large 3 bedroom condos and townhouses cost upwards of $500,000, plus condo fees. There are few rules tonencourage developers to build family friendly dense and urban housing inside the city limits. The reality is that it is the people in Previlles article that are blocking the changes necessary to density the city and make housing more affordable to more families. Too much land downtown is set aside for single family homes. The demand to live in the city is high, and is mostly accommodated via high rise condos. Many don't like such densities and prefer to live on quieter streets with less neighbors around. My solution would be to encourage more mid and low rise housing. We need more 4-7 story buildings and town homes. The problem is the land to build them is hard to come by. David Miller was on the right track with his avenues plan and Transit city. Now we have a mayor that doesn't even spend time in the city or has a vision for it's future.

 

[Jonny5]

David Miller was on the right track with his avenues plan and Transit city. Now we have a mayor that doesn't even spend time in the city or has a vision for it's future.

If Toronto Life wanted to publish something current and interesting they should have profiled "Miller Families": middle class families raising kids in the city (ie. not investment bankers with kids at Branksome, Globe writers with kinds at St. Mike's or millionaire gay couples with kids at UCC [not like Toronto Life staff know anyone other than that]). A critical look at the disadvantages, and the advantages, would have added to the current discussions about the city's future. This was just fluff. I expect another article in a year about how too many people are moving to Dundas and "It was great when only I lived here but now it's too popular. I can almost never get a seat at the Thirsty Cactus and forget about organic local source pies from Dyment's, they're always sold out!."

EDIT: P.S. If you're in the neighbourhood, Dyment's pies are great! I also loved the Thirsty Cactus while a student at McMaster.

 

[sixrings]

David miller was right about avenues and mid rise. Instead what we have or are continually getting is highrise right beside low rise with almost zero midrise. People for whatever reason like to say they live in a condo with 60 floors versus 8 floors. Its typical bigger is better mentality. My wife and I moved from Downtown to (I guess the inner suburbs) Eglinton West area. We chose the area because we thought the Eglinton LRT line would cause redevelopment. We also thought that some parts of Eglinton feel very walkable. We are less then a 5 minute walk to the subway. We chose the area because we thought our kids could walk to school. We chose the area because we thought cederville park seems like a CLEAN and relatively SAFE park.. Downtown has many parks but lets be honest they are often used as a place where people go to, to do drugs. I wish that was not the case but its true. I wont lie, I do miss my downtown condo whcih was my original bachelor pad. But a basement, a second floor and a hot tub is a nice thing to come home to. I loved my condo but I do not regret my purchase at all.. In fact the house is growing significantly on me. I cant believe it but I may actually love it more? I grew up in agincourt neighbourhood as a kid. I HATED every second of it. We drove everywhere. The closest thing to my house to walk to was a plaza with a conveinent store. STC was the big thing and it was a 40 minute walk away. Ive always hated busses so I would walk it rather then bus it. But it seems everyones different. Some people ACTUALLY like the suburbs and not just for price reasons. Just like many people look at downtown as the place that freaks are and there is too much traffic. An article explaining why people were choosing to move and what the future would look like if the trend continued does seem like a better article. SOmeone write toronto life with the suggestion.

 

[TOareaFan]

If Toronto Life wanted to publish something current and interesting they should have profiled "Miller Families": middle class families raising kids in the city (ie. not investment bankers with kids at Branksome, Globe writers with kinds at St. Mike's or millionaire gay couples with kids at UCC [not like Toronto Life staff know anyone other than that]) . A critical look at the disadvantages, and the advantages, would have added to the current discussions about the cities future. This was just fluff. I expect another article in a year about how too many people are moving to Dundas and "It was great when only I lived here but now it's too popular. I can almost never get a seat Thirsty Cactus and forget about organic local source pies from Dyment's they're always sold out!."

EDIT: P.S. If you're in the neighbourhood, Dyment's pies are great! I also loved the Thirsty Cactus while a student at McMaster.

This made me smile....I haven't read the article because I don't read TL.....but the few times in my life I have read one of their pieces I am left with that "they really don't think ordinary people like me live/play/work in this city/area/region". In my limited exposure to their mag...I find they have a very limited view of what makes up a "Torontonian"

 

[JoeParez]

Why would they do that? In the city we walk with the kids to parks, swimming, schools, recreation centres, libraries.

I do the same thing in Woodbridge. My elementary and high schools were within walking distance of my house; same with recreational centres with pools. Not to mention my neighbours, who had pools. My local library was right beside my high school and another one was built about 15 minutes from it.

I have a park right behind my house and about 6 - 10 parks within walking and biking distance. Also, two pretty nice biking trails are within my neighbuorhood. Not to mention Boyd Park and the Kortright Conservation Area. There's also the McMicheal Canadian Art Collection/Gallery.

We are frequently at the ROM and Science Centre. I'm not sure why anyone would want to subject their children to suburbia.

Suburban schools often take their kids on field trips to the likes of the ROM and Science Centre as well; so it's not like their missing out on anything by being in school in the suburbs.



Much love nfitz.

 

[DTowner]

There is nothing appealing about the suburbs (Scarborough, Etobicoke, etc) small towns or the 905 to me. It is a lifestyle choice (and financial as well).

But, to think that your children (children are usually the reason many go out there) are safer and will lead a better lifestyle in the suburbs is dangerous thinking, because it isn’t true. Just because they’ll have a backyard doesn’t mean they will grow up healthier and happier with a better outlook on life or a better education.

If midtown and downtown were to build more 3 bedroom condos and more townhomes (as they are doing with the waterfront development, along with parks, skating rinks, etc) maybe more families would stay downtown or midtown.

It is very telling, though, that people are leaving for a ‘small town feel’ which (ironically enough) has more of an urban feel to it (at least in its mainstreet) than a suburb like Scarborough which is all highways and malls (I was raised there). In fact, many downtown neighbourhoods (Cabbagetown, Annex, Rosedale, Leslieville, Danforth) have a small town feel to them. Mind you, you’re paying LARGE to live there (in a house).

Canadians still believe in the 'suburban dream' (for me it was a nightmare; and still is!) We are convinced that having a huge lawn and backyard are tantamount to a healthier lifestyle for our children. I don't see it.

Ideally we would all want a spacious home that is within walking distance to all amenities, shops, entertainment, work, etc. But that costs $$$. It's a trade off: which do you prefer — to be close to everything you need but live in a condo or really expensive house, or live in the 'burbs in a bigger, cheaper house but have to drive and TTC it everywhere you go?

 

[DTowner]

I do the same thing in Woodbridge. My elementary and high schools were within walking distance of my house; same with recreational centres with pools. Not to mention my neighbours, who had pools. My local library was right beside my high school and another one was built about 15 minutes from it.

I have a park right behind my house and about 6-10 parks within walking and biking distance. Also, two pretty nice biking trails are within my neighbuorhood. Not to mention Boyd Park and the Kortright Conservation Area. There's also the McMicheal Canadian Art Collection/Gallery.

Much love nfitz.

So, safe to say that Woodbridge is appealing to you because it's becoming more urbanised?

 

[Thanos]

Because it's cheaper and hundreds of millions of children are subjected to it every day and turn out fine. There really isn't anything more to say than that. Until it's no longer cheaper it will happen.

I actually did the math of what it would cost to move to the burbs or buy a 2 bedroom condo in the city when i first moved here. Guess what, the 2-bedroom condo in the city saves me about 150$/month. Now, a 2 bedroom condo in the burbs would be cheaper but why would i move to the burbs and still live in a condo? Then there's also the fact that i would be saving 1-2 hours a day from commuting.

If Toronto Life wanted to publish something current and interesting they should have profiled "Miller Families": middle class families raising kids in the city (ie. not investment bankers with kids at Branksome, Globe writers with kinds at St. Mike's or millionaire gay couples with kids at UCC [not like Toronto Life staff know anyone other than that]).

I work in the financial industry and know many investment banker types and others with a net worth in excess of 1 million who live with their families in the city and even downtown. One in fact just moved downtown from Markham.

 

[nfitz]

There's also the McMicheal Canadian Art Collection/Gallery.

I was ready to believe you for a minute there ... but hang on. I was at McMicheal earlier this summer, followed by dinner nearby at corner of 27 and Nashville ... about a 10 minute walk, and I recall noticing just how unwalkable it was. Nashville hasn't even got a sidewalk, and to cross over it you feel like you are playing chicken. The pedestrian crossing doesn't even have wheelchair ramps where there was a small piece of sidewalk, and the plaza there was built to make it almost impossible to get from the crosswalk to the stores without walking through the shubbery.

Suburban schools often take their kids on field trips to the likes of the ROM and Science Centre as well; so it's not like their missing out on anything by being in school in the suburbs.

I hadn't realised suburban preschools were so flush ... though I was thinking more of what to do on a day with the kids for a couple of hours.

Haven't spent much time otherwise in Woodbridge ... looking at it in Google ... my god, it looks like pure hell ... something right out of Weeds. What on earth does a 15-year old do for fun ... do they live at Wonderland or something?

I don't understand the desire to live in surburbia in the deep GTA, miles from anything interesting. I'd sooner either be close to downtown ... or in a much smaller city, where even the furthest suburb isn't far from downtown. The traffic I've seen in 905 on a Saturday are really depressing ... I can't imagine having to live through that every time I leave the house. It's hard to believe ... but people actually seem to drive their car to go get a coffee!?!?!

I tossed a random Woodbridge Postal Code into the Walkability website - Car dependant it says: http://www.walkscore.com/score/L4L-6L3

I suppose it's not too bad if you find somewhere near stores ... but it looked very big-boxey when I drove through. But I'd imagine it would be hard to find good jobs nearby that didn't require a car.

 

[JoeParez]

So, safe to say that Woodbridge is appealing to you because it's becoming more urbanised?

Well it was like this when I moved here in 1990 (most of the things that I listed).
So I guess you can say it's ban urban since then? ;-)

But yes, "urban" neighbourhoods are definitely more appealing to me.