Downtown Rapid Transit Expansion Study

[gweed123]

That's a good plan. Though I'd probably toll the Gardiner and DVP instead of the Downtown congestion charge. As well, sell development rights over the stations where possible.

I'd be in favour of that as well. It would bring in somewhere around $200 million per year, which I'm sure would be about enough to make the payments on a 30yr municipal bond.

 

[BurlOak]

That's a good plan. Though I'd probably toll the Gardiner and DVP instead of the Downtown congestion charge. As well, sell development rights over the stations where possible.

The result of tolls on the DVP and Gardiner is that it punishes people from NW Etobicoke and NE Scarborough and exempts those from Central North York, the Yorks, and Northern (former) Toronto). Essentially, those on a subway line do not pay if they use their car, even though they have a transfer free trip downtown, while those with a multi-transfer Bus-LRT-subway connections must pay if they drive.

If you impose taxes or tolls, they have to be somewhat fair.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I think we have to keep in mind what's doable politically - raising taxes/user fees might be possible piecemeal but to implement all these tools at once will require such a large amount of political capital, you'd probably have to put it to a referendum for buy-in.

AoD

 

[Fred.S]

I don't know the numbers, but I'd imagine a good chunk of the traffic on the DVP and Gardiner are from the 905. If you were able to put the tolls close enough to the Toronto border, I think it would be very easy to sell politically. Toronto residents vote to tax incoming traffic, and the 905 doesn't have a say. Unfortunately at the border would mean 404 and QEW, so that would be a provincial issue.

Anyone know of any studies or polls that show where traffic entering the Gardiner and DVP junctions are coming from? Like the percentage of Torontonians and non-Torontonians...

 

[gweed123]

I don't know the numbers, but I'd imagine a good chunk of the traffic on the DVP and Gardiner are from the 905. If you were able to put the tolls close enough to the Toronto border, I think it would be very easy to sell politically. Toronto residents vote to tax incoming traffic, and the 905 doesn't have a say. Unfortunately at the border would mean 404 and QEW, so that would be a provincial issue.

Anyone know of any studies or polls that show where traffic entering the Gardiner and DVP junctions are coming from? Like the percentage of Torontonians and non-Torontonians...

I think that doing a per km charge would be better than a flat fee at the border, although I do see the appeal in the "charge them and not us" mentality.

20¢/km during peak and 10¢/km off peak could bring in around $100 million per year for each roadway. This means that 905ers would still be charged more, because they would be driving the full length of the highway.

EDIT: That was my 3000th post. Holy crap, I've spent way too much time on this site, haha.

 

[smallspy]

Interesting analysis, and one that I certainly agree with. Sheppard needs to be tossed into the deal if we're going to get the support of the hardliners on the right.

As for the DRL, here is my idea of how to fund it:

1) Make it abundantly clear that the majority of the line will be financed through alternative revenue streams.
2) Finance the line through the following formula: 2/5 Municipal, 2/5 Provincial, 1/5 Federal
3) The day the DRL opens, a London-style congestion zone gets implemented around downtown (Spadina, Bloor, Don Valley, Lake).
4) The Province implements tolls on the 400 series highways, or even just the 401 Express if we need a less drastic approach.
5) Use the toll revenues to pay down the interest and some of the principle on the debts. Congestion zone goes to Municipal portion, 400 series highways goes to Provincial portion.

I think that the assumption that a lot of people are making is that the revenue from these revenue tools needs to be entirely raised up front. The problem is that building up enough cash in that fund to do anything useful with it is going to take years. Why not use the on-going revenue coming from those sources to pay down the construction debt instead? Yes, it may cost us a bit more in the long run, but we'll get the projects years quicker than we would if we had to wait for the money to come in first. Think of it as like using a credit card vs using a debit card.

Brilliant. And how do you propose paying for the first 30 years of operation? Since it will likely take that long until the ridership numbers increase to the point that it begins to come close to paying it's own way.

Transit expansion isn't just a fund-once exercise, folks.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[gweed123]

Brilliant. And how do you propose paying for the first 30 years of operation? Since it will likely take that long until the ridership numbers increase to the point that it begins to come close to paying it's own way.

Transit expansion isn't just a fund-once exercise, folks.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

If I understand correctly, the only subway line in Toronto that doesn't at least pay for its own operating costs is Sheppard. Everything else is actually helping to subsidize a lot of the money-losing bus routes.

 

[Fred.S]

Brilliant. And how do you propose paying for the first 30 years of operation? Since it will likely take that long until the ridership numbers increase to the point that it begins to come close to paying it's own way.

Transit expansion isn't just a fund-once exercise, folks.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

I think we would have to be specific with what kind of DRL we are talking about. I'm thinking generally a line that goes from Eglinton/Weston looping downtown and up to eglinton/don mills, with the eastern half built first. If the line was built to modern metro standards, then we're talking about fully automated trains and stations, and low maintenance costs for new infrastructure. There would be substantial savings by not having operators and collectors, as well as energy savings when compared to our current subway (computers operate vehicles more energy efficiently). As well, that line would take pressure off of the bus/streetcar network, again reducing the number of busses/operators, or at least not requiring as much of an increase compared with normal population growth.

I'm sure the line itself would immediately build up strong numbers, since it's actually going through or close to high density areas, and not having to wait for population growths. Plus with feeders like GO, the Eglinton LRT and the other bursting-at-the-seem subway/streetcar lines, the line would do very well.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I think we would have to be specific with what kind of DRL we are talking about. I'm thinking generally a line that goes from Eglinton/Weston looping downtown and up to eglinton/don mills, with the eastern half built first. If the line was built to modern metro standards, then we're talking about fully automated trains and stations, and low maintenance costs for new infrastructure. There would be substantial savings by not having operators and collectors, as well as energy savings when compared to our current subway (computers operate vehicles more energy efficiently). As well, that line would take pressure off of the bus/streetcar network, again reducing the number of busses/operators, or at least not requiring as much of an increase compared with normal population growth.

I'm sure the line itself would immediately build up strong numbers, since it's actually going through or close to high density areas, and not having to wait for population growths. Plus with feeders like GO, the Eglinton LRT and the other bursting-at-the-seem subway/streetcar lines, the line would do very well.

There would still be a "conductor" on the train to handle emergency situations.

 

[ssiguy2]

Toronto will NEVER get a DRL until Torontonians start to realize that if they want rapid transit then they are going to have to pay for it. Some how the citizens of Toronto don't see the connection and expecting any more funds from a broke Queen's Park isn't going to happen.
Toronto refuses to acknowledge it's financial responsibilities to help fund transit expansion, won't entertain any form of PPP, and the province is drowning in red ink as far as the eye can see. I have no doubt Toronto will pay somebody a king's ransom to study the idea but all the studies in the world won't result in one foot of construction.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Toronto will NEVER get a DRL until Torontonians start to realize that if they want rapid transit then they are going to have to pay for it. Some how the citizens of Toronto don't see the connection and expecting any more funds from a broke Queen's Park isn't going to happen.
Toronto refuses to acknowledge it's financial responsibilities to help fund transit expansion, won't entertain any form of PPP, and the province is drowning in red ink as far as the eye can see. I have no doubt Toronto will pay somebody a king's ransom to study the idea but all the studies in the world won't result in one foot of construction.

City Council is working on a transit funding plan as we speak. All councillors but 3 are supportive of the idea of new taxes to pay for transit.

 

[sixrings]

City Council is working on a transit funding plan as we speak. All councillors but 3 are supportive of the idea of new taxes to pay for transit.

They will need much more then 100 million a year to finance a DRL. I think the money they plan to raise should go to finishing off Transit City while the province and feds pay for a drl.

Btw I'd host the Olympics if it was the only way I could get funding for a drl from the feds and province.

 

[MisterF]

Toronto will NEVER get a DRL until Torontonians start to realize that if they want rapid transit then they are going to have to pay for it. Some how the citizens of Toronto don't see the connection and expecting any more funds from a broke Queen's Park isn't going to happen.
Toronto refuses to acknowledge it's financial responsibilities to help fund transit expansion, won't entertain any form of PPP, and the province is drowning in red ink as far as the eye can see. I have no doubt Toronto will pay somebody a king's ransom to study the idea but all the studies in the world won't result in one foot of construction.

You're getting way ahead of things. There's no funding for a DRL because there's no plan for one. It could have been part of Transit City but it wasn't. It hasn't even been on the radar of Council or the TTC until recently, let alone a priority. The province isn't going to fund a non-existent project. But it is in Metrolinx's plan (conceptually) so sooner or later it's going to be designed and the discussions of how to pay for it will happen.

 

[kkgg7]

It would be interesting to see where this study is going, given the recent comments by the TTC CEO:

TTC chief: Subway expansion for downtown relief line has to be discussed ‘right now’

There's also a good report in a second National Post story:
‘We’re out of station’: Yonge Subway line desperately close to bursting

My friend who moved in Toronto only 4 months ago already found that another north-south subway line going downtown should be of top priority, yet we are still wasting time talking about sheppard, Finch or Yonge extension. a DRL should precede the Eglington Line IMO.

Let's see, the TTC chief thinks it needs to be discussed "right now", which means a decision might be made by 2020 after all the BS "consultation" "EA" "debate" and fighting, and the line if lucky, might be completed by 2040. I guess Toronto will choke to death by its own traffic by then. Even blind people see this is not working.

 

[W. K. Lis]

My friend who moved in Toronto only 4 months ago already found that another north-south subway line going downtown should be of top priority, yet we are still wasting time talking about sheppard, Finch or Yonge extension. a DRL should precede the Eglington Line IMO.

Let's see, the TTC chief thinks it needs to be discussed "right now", which means a decision might be made by 2020 after all the BS "consultation" "EA" "debate" and fighting, and the line if lucky, might be completed by 2040. I guess Toronto will choke to death by its own traffic by then. Even blind people see this is not working.

Bookmark this TTC website: http://www3.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Transit_Planning/index.jsp

Its the TTC's Transit Planning documents and reports page. Download the PDF's every so often to get currently available statistics. Such as the 4 Sheppard Subway has 47,700 riders while the 1 Yonge-University-Spadina Subway has only 714,210 riders, 2 Bloor-Danforth Subway has only 495,280 riders, and the 510 Spadina and 509 Harbourfront streetcars have only 55,400, per day. Shows, to me at least, that the 510 Spadina is used as a relief line of sorts all ready, for some riders depending upon their destination (like the Rogers Centre or the Metro Toronto Convention Centre).