Downtown Rapid Transit Expansion Study

[M II A II R II K]

Let's see, the TTC chief thinks it needs to be discussed "right now", which means a decision might be made by 2020 after all the BS "consultation" "EA" "debate" and fighting, and the line if lucky, might be completed by 2040. I guess Toronto will choke to death by its own traffic by then. Even blind people see this is not working.

Supposedly people want subways that extend sparsely trafficked lines with an extension that would be even more deserted, and just add to the existing system, and then there'll be 3 Yonge and Bloors.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Well, on the bright side, nothing focuses attention on the need for DRL like ongoing and impending chaos on the Yonge line. I think there is general agreement everywhere (Council, TTC) that DRL is of highest importance in Toronto at this point. That in itself is a great step forward from pretending that the problem doesn't exist, much less merit action as little as a year ago.

AoD

 

[BurlOak]

You're getting way ahead of things. There's no funding for a DRL because there's no plan for one. It could have been part of Transit City but it wasn't. It hasn't even been on the radar of Council or the TTC until recently, let alone a priority. The province isn't going to fund a non-existent project. But it is in Metrolinx's plan (conceptually) so sooner or later it's going to be designed and the discussions of how to pay for it will happen.

Was there a Spadina Extension plan to Vaughan before it got funding?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Actually yes - not a completely fleshed out, ready for the shovel plan but it's there. More advanced that what's available for DRL at this point.

AoD

 

[Paleo]

Toronto will NEVER get a DRL until Torontonians start to realize that if they want rapid transit then they are going to have to pay for it. Some how the citizens of Toronto don't see the connection and expecting any more funds from a broke Queen's Park isn't going to happen.
Toronto refuses to acknowledge it's financial responsibilities to help fund transit expansion, won't entertain any form of PPP, and the province is drowning in red ink as far as the eye can see. I have no doubt Toronto will pay somebody a king's ransom to study the idea but all the studies in the world won't result in one foot of construction.

Subways subways subways!

It may surprise someone from BC, but people in Toronto pay gas, sales, and income taxes too.

 

[rbt]

Subways subways subways!

It may surprise someone from BC, but people in Toronto pay gas, sales, and income taxes too.

Sales tax in Ontario 1% higher than BC.

Fuel tax in Ontario is about 6 cents per litre lower than BC and 16 cents per litre lower than Vancouver. Vancouver's fuel tax is 63% higher than Toronto.

Income tax is lower than BC by about 10% (~4% of net income) with very little difference at $30,000/year and a large difference at $150,000/year.

Corporate tax rate is about 10% lower in BC (1.5% of net profit).

 

[innsertnamehere]

holy S*** at corporate tax rate in BC.

 

[Tuscani01]

Bookmark this TTC website: http://www3.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Transit_Planning/index.jsp

Its the TTC's Transit Planning documents and reports page. Download the PDF's every so often to get currently available statistics. Such as the 4 Sheppard Subway has 47,700 riders while the 1 Yonge-University-Spadina Subway has only 714,210 riders, 2 Bloor-Danforth Subway has only 495,280 riders, and the 510 Spadina and 509 Harbourfront streetcars have only 55,400, per day. Shows, to me at least, that the 510 Spadina is used as a relief line of sorts all ready, for some riders depending upon their destination (like the Rogers Centre or the Metro Toronto Convention Centre).

I, and many residents of Cityplace who commute North along Yonge, Spadina, or East/West, do use Spadina as a relief line. I travel to Don Mills/Eglinton for work and take the 510 North to Spadina Station, as it is faster and less crowded than taking the 510 to Union and then the Yonge line to Bloor. Going home, I do the reverse trip, as taking Yonge frequently means being caught in delays or in crowded trains. Many people do the same in the morning, and I also see many people using the route to get home.

 

[rbt]

holy S*** at corporate tax rate in BC.

I meant 1.5% lower rate on net profit. BC corporate tax rate is 10% and Ontario's is 11.5%.

 

[nfitz]

Fuel tax in Ontario is about 6 cents per litre lower than BC and 16 cents per litre lower than Vancouver. Vancouver's fuel tax is 63% higher than Toronto.

I don't think this is fully accurate. Remember that Ontario has an HST of 13% on gas, but in BC, they didn't apply HST to gas, so only the 5% GST applies.

The BC gas tax is 14.5 ¢/L - compared to 14.7 ¢/L. And then they have a carbon tax at 5.56 ¢/L, but on $1.30/L they pay about 6.2 ¢/L GST while in Ontario we pay 15.0 ¢/L HST. And we all pay the 10 ¢/L federal exercise tax. So at a pump price of $1.30/L, BC pays total tax of 36.5 ¢/L compared to 39.5 ¢/L in Ontario. So they are paying less total tax than Ontario.

Now Vancouver does have an 9 ¢/L tax on gas to pay for transit ... so that does make the Vancouver tax 6 ¢/L higher than Ontario. But at $1.30 a litre, that would be about 15% higher ... not 63% higher!

 

[k10ery]

Sales tax in Ontario 1% higher than BC.

Fuel tax in Ontario is about 6 cents per litre lower than BC and 16 cents per litre lower than Vancouver. Vancouver's fuel tax is 63% higher than Toronto.

Income tax is lower than BC by about 10% (~4% of net income) with very little difference at $30,000/year and a large difference at $150,000/year.

Corporate tax rate is about 10% lower in BC (1.5% of net profit).

Personal income taxes are higher in Ontario. Well, about the same on incomes under $40K, but a good bit higher in Ontario above that. The top rate in BC is 14%, compared to 17% in Ontario.

 

[rbt]

Personal income taxes are higher in Ontario. Well, about the same on incomes under $40K, but a good bit higher in Ontario above that. The top rate in BC is 14%, compared to 17% in Ontario.

Not according to the federal government (note, this does not include health-care premium):

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html

Ontario
5.05% on the first $39,020 of taxable income, +
9.15% on the next $39,023, +
11.16% on the amount over $78,043

My tax return (T1-ON428 form) for both 2010 and 2011 matches the above.


British Columbia
5.06% on the first $37,013 of taxable income, +
7.7% on the next $37,015, +
10.5% on the next $10,965, +
12.29% on the next $18,212, +
14.7% on the amount over $103,205

 

[rbt]

I don't think this is fully accurate. Remember that Ontario has an HST of 13% on gas, but in BC, they didn't apply HST to gas, so only the 5% GST applies.

This chart on wikipedia claims to include some sales tax component in it and that is what I was basing my numbers on.

It does appear they only calculate the sales tax component on the excise taxes which I had missed and assummed it was on current pricing; their assumption is that fuel is $0 per litre.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_fuel_taxes_in_Canada

Done right, we should be ignoring the federal component for both locations when comparing.

 

[ssiguy2]

Does it matter?
Tax rates could be half in Ontario than they are is BC, Torontonians want rapid transit and they want someone else to pay for it.
All the studies in the world {which is the only thing the TTC excels at} won't do squat unless Torontonians start to realize that things cost money and more money means more taxes.
Ottawa is helping with funding with it's LRT as is Calgary, Edmonton, and Vancouver. This is why those last 3 cities have been expanding their transit systems at a very fast pace and why Toronto has done nearly nothing for the last 3 decades. Where the hell is the leadership from Metrolinx? They are "studying" revenue tools but are putting off any recommendations til 2013.......why? Torontonians need rapid transit {and sorry Finch and Sheppard LRT do not qualify as rapid} and they need it yesterday.
Until Torontonians start to come to terms with the fact that they are going to have to contribute to their own infrastructure and possibly use PPP then a DRL is going no where.
Queen's Park is broke and the feds won't even consider adding one dime unless Toronto does the same do this talk of an Eglinton extension to Pearson, a Yonge extension to RH, or a DRL as just pretty lines on a map. They make for some interesting conversation but they mean squat and we will be having this same conversation 20 years from now.

 

[ShonTron]

Toronto City Council just voted 41-1 to look into Markham's proposed "I-METRO-E proposal" as to serve as a potential DRL.

Here's the link to the city's page. This is a late, last minute addition to the agenda.

http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2012.MM22.19